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Media picks up on transport disparity between London and "the North"

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tbtc

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Buses are important. If they are funded by the local council, and that funding is cut by forty percent, then there is going to be a decline in service. The conservative government, which secured a far smaller proportion of votes in the North of England, is inevitably going to receive criticism.

Well, the Conservative government receive a smaller proportion of votes in London too AIUI (I think Labour have around two thirds of the parliamentary seats?), but London seems to do okay transport wise.

The problem is though that if councils are going to have chaotic/vulnerable funding then I don't know that bus provision would sit best with councils. I mean, in an ideal world, I'd have councils well funded with stable income etc etc, but realistically local government spending isn't great these days so I don't know if the average council would do a better job (yes, there's Nottingham, but there's also Warrington). Any expenditure on a new vehicle would always be money that could be used to fund Meals On Wheels or keep a Library open.

Would Northern still be such a basket case if the Government hadn't removed the best routes to make Transpennine Express a separate franchise? I agree the North needs investment but can see the point about subsidies being a factor against it happening.

The routes that Northern operate would still be basket cases, whichever franchise they were part of. Nobody on here seems interested in what we do with so many loss making routes where heavy rail isn't fit for the modern market (the Victorians left us lines that don't serve town centres particularly well or are on the wrong side of the valley to most of the population or aren't flexible enough to cope with the huge changes over the past couple of generations).

Carve up the franchises however you want but it's like Northern Rock parcelling up toxic debts with good debts to try to hide them away. Maybe the argument is the other way round and TPE would still be making do with 158s if it was still shackled to the rest of the "Provincial" franchise in northern England.

Rural transport is a red herring really. Rural areas in all developed countries rely almost exclusively on the private car. There are still places in western Europe where good rural public transport still exists, but this does not translate into high modal share. Even an hourly bus service 7 days a week is not going to get many people out of their cars. Urban and inter-city travel is where the focus should be

I completely agree that public transport is much better at serving areas of higher population density - rail isn't going to be competitive between small towns - a bus route will struggle to penetrate a village where people live long distances from the nearest stop - we'd be much better focussing on urban areas.

It's just that the OP was an article about rural public transport provision in the UK (and how it's equally bad in northern and southern England).

Some people on here think that train stations should be liberally sprinkled around the country, rather than targeted in the areas most suitable though. I'm perfectly relaxed about whole parliamentary seats or even counties not having a train station if there's no effective way of providing one. Rail should pick the battles it can best win.

What I am saying is that the emphasis should be on funding urban transport as that is where there is a lot of scope for cutting car use. Other countries subsidise their urban transport heavily. Currently, funding for buses in Britain is focused on areas of low demand.

Agreed - which is why I roll my eyes when people's great schemes typically involve re-opening heavy rail between small rural places - we'd be much better investing in urban areas. But that's probably less "romantic" to the misty-eyed people still grumbling about Beeching...

You have correctly identified the reason that the fares are higher in London. The fact is that too many Government buildings, Universities, seat of Government, foreigner destination of choice, theatres and event places. Too many people in general live and work in London and despite the costs seemingly want to.

The problem is constantly made worse by the vast majority of Government spending being made in London. This in itself makes London a MORE desirable location. Eg, airports, northerners expected to travel to Heathrow, despite there being planes to many destinations from Manchester, how many Londoners consider going to Manchester. The flights are often cheaper and more frequent from Heathrow, but without building a third runway, the capacity could be easily made available at Manchester. Whilst the airlines would moan they would soon offer more flights from Manchester if there was no alternative. The percentage of hoilday flights from Heathrow which could be moved from their is around 35%, so no extra capacity would actually needed for business flights if these were moved to other airports. Try Bradford, one sizeable theatre, apart from curry houses and a few nightclubs it shuts down at 18.00. London has well over 50 theatres.

The idea of having a dominant single city wherever leads to concentration of resources whichever Government, because they cant win an election without some of the London vote. What is needed is to devolve Government offices to the regions (and preferably not like BBC Salford where their self-entitled staff luvvies refused to move, despite vast investment. The BBC should have recruited, trained and replaced their 'star' presenters with (cheaper) and likely just as good locals from Salford.

I still doubt HS2 commuter line will get any farther north than Birmingham (if as far as that).

So many points but... I'm not sure that public transport is ever going to solve the problems that you raise.

I know Sheffielders who never use local buses/trains around here but are happy using the red buses and Underground of London, in the way that I know Sheffielders who never visit the Cruicible/Lyceum theatres but will always want to go see a "show" when they are in London. That's just the way things are.

I'm not sure that the number of Universities in London are too many. Compared to the size of the place, the London Universities seem on the low side - huge numbers of Students can have a huge effect on places like Manchester/ Leeds/ Sheffield/ Newcastle but London's Student population seems a lot more invisible. If you can afford to be a Student in London then good luck to you, given the living costs etc!

Tourists want to visit the capital city (with it's palaces/ monuments/ history etc)? Fair enough. That's how it works, isn't it?

Not enough people are being encouraged to use Manchester Airport? Well, it's got a strangle hold on railways in northern England because of the obsession with running direct trains there. And the Airport is going to have a very fast rail link to London in the next decade or so...

Lots of things to criticise London for (as there are of any capital city) but the fact that they've got too many Students and Bradford doesn't have enough theatres seems a bit thin.
 
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Bletchleyite

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A very good post. It should be read and digested. I suspect it may be wasted.

I'd say the North West has substantially better rural public transport than Buckinghamshire, where other than the very odd branch line and inter-regional bus service that happens to serve somewhere there's next to nowt. Well, maybe Cheddington and Tring, but those are just a coincidence of being on the mainline.

It's London vs. not London that's the issue.
 
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radamfi

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Well, urban areas certainly need good public transport, but I don't recognise the scenario in which funding is focused on areas of low demand.

As you probably know, buses outside London are run primarily on a commercial basis, where the operator is free to set fares and times as they see fit. The only funding most routes get is for BSOG and reimbursement for accepting free passes.

The local authority then looks to see if there are any gaps in the commercial network and subsidises operators to run services in these gaps. By definition, where and when demand is lower.

Almost all daytime urban services are commercial, whereas rural services (where they still exist) are typically subsidised.

Because the daytime urban services are run commercially, they are assumed to be good enough, when in actual fact they are mostly unattractive and people with access to a car largely avoid them.

But urban areas during the daytime is where the problems with car usage are most acute. So it would make more sense to target the investment and subsidy here.
 

yorksrob

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Well, the Conservative government receive a smaller proportion of votes in London too AIUI (I think Labour have around two thirds of the parliamentary seats?), but London seems to do okay transport wise.

The problem is though that if councils are going to have chaotic/vulnerable funding then I don't know that bus provision would sit best with councils. I mean, in an ideal world, I'd have councils well funded with stable income etc etc, but realistically local government spending isn't great these days so I don't know if the average council would do a better job (yes, there's Nottingham, but there's also Warrington). Any expenditure on a new vehicle would always be money that could be used to fund Meals On Wheels or keep a Library open.

Which is precisely why the regions need full devolution with a proper funding settlement.
 

Adsy125

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London is highly subsidised in terms of capital expenditure compared to the rest of the country. Look at all the investment poured down the drain on Crossrail. Look at all the money on new carriages and extra trains, and still Londoners complain that more needs to be spent. The best way forward would be ‘no investment for London for the next five years’ and spend an equivalent amount elsewhere.
Source? This seems to directly contradict the figures earlier which show Londoners (&SE) pay more tax than they get back from the government, unlike every single other region, implying London subsidised everywhere else...
 

underbank

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There's a general trend in this thread that public transport investment should be concentrated on densely populated urban areas. So, what happens to everyone else? What about kids that have to go to their local sink school because there are no buses to better schools (or their parents can't afford the exorbitant bus pass costs). What about workers who are trapped in low paid jobs (or unemployed) because they can't get public transport to/from better paid work? Not everyone can drive, and if they can, not everyone can afford the costs of running a car. And car drivers are the enemy these days anyway, so likely to be hit further by higher taxes, road charging, etc. What about regional towns (and cities) that are already blighted by traffic congestion? You really can't just ignore those areas - we need solutions, and that doesn't just mean making people move to the biggest cities!

Glibly saying a 2 hourly service is fine because few people use it is massively missing the point - the people living in those areas are being denied a proper public transport service, and denied access to better schools, jobs, etc. You simply can't function a normal life of attending school or a workplace on a 2 hourly service. If there was a better service, more people would use it and it would open up options for people.

Only a couple of days ago, I was reading an article about a "bright" youngster who simply couldn't get to "better" university open days because of the scarcity and cost of public transport. She was basically condemned to her local ex-poly uni's for which her grades and aspirations were too high. It really shouldn't be like that. But, we're going through the same with our son - every university he's put on his wish list, we've researched train travel instead with buses at each end of the train journey, and the timings weren't good, but the costs all in were simply ridiculous for 3 of us (yes, looking at cheapest advance fares) - not to mention needing overnight accommodation because of crap weekend services, so we're crossing the country by car instead saving several hundred pounds. If we didn't have a car, he wouldn't be visiting the best universities.
 
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Bletchleyite

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What about kids that have to go to their local sink school because there are no buses to better schools

Public transport is NOT the solution to this problem. Putting money into the "bad" schools to make them not bad schools is the solution.

All kids should attend their local school (thus avoiding unnecessary journeys), and all local schools should be good enough that nobody has an issue with this.
 

Bletchleyite

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Only a couple of days ago, I was reading an article about a "bright" youngster who simply couldn't get to "better" university open days because of the scarcity and cost of public transport. She was basically condemned to her local ex-poly uni's for which her grades and aspirations were too high. It really shouldn't be like that. But, we're going through the same with our son - every university he's put on his wish list, we've researched train travel instead with buses at each end of the train journey, and the timings weren't good, but the costs all in were simply ridiculous for 3 of us (yes, looking at cheapest advance fares) - not to mention needing overnight accommodation because of crap weekend services, so we're crossing the country by car instead saving several hundred pounds. If we didn't have a car, he wouldn't be visiting the best universities.

Why can't he go on his own? Parents do not have to go to open days, and a student can get used to travelling e.g. by coach rather than rail, and stay in a youth hostel.

I similarly doubt the former story is, unless the student has a disability so can neither walk nor cycle, anything other than an "it's not fair" whine. There is always a way. You don't even have to go to open days to apply; there's enough online and printed information out there too.
 

hwl

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Source? This seems to directly contradict the figures earlier which show Londoners (&SE) pay more tax than they get back from the government, unlike every single other region, implying London subsidised everywhere else...
London does subsidise everywhere else and also worth noting that circa half the Crossrail funding is locally funded from London (which will increase as London is ultimately paying for the cost over runs)
 

underbank

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Source? This seems to directly contradict the figures earlier which show Londoners (&SE) pay more tax than they get back from the government, unlike every single other region, implying London subsidised everywhere else...

If you moved the head offices to Shap, then Shap would overnight become the region where people paid more tax and received lower subsidies. What these figures always forget, is that the head office profits/employment is on the back of consumers throughout the UK. If your bank, or energy firms close their local/regional branches and move their operation to London, then of course, all the jobs and profits are recorded at London, but they're generated from customers throughout the country. You can move that head office anywhere and the jobs/profits will then be reflected in the new location. The methodology of the figures is flawed.
 

Adsy125

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Only a couple of days ago, I was reading an article about a "bright" youngster who simply couldn't get to "better" university open days because of the scarcity and cost of public transport.
This seems to be a common thing, but most universities will pay for your costs to go to open days if you can’t afford it, and no one is forced go to an open day before going, so that’s a very poor piece of journalism.
 

Bletchleyite

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This seems to be a common thing, but most universities will pay for your costs to go to open days if you can’t afford it, and no one is forced go to an open day before going, so that’s a very poor piece of journalism.

As I said, just a whine about someone who clearly wants things on a plate. The lesson is that things are even less on a plate after graduating, so she'd best get used to it. Do you have a link to the article at all?
 

JamesRowden

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As you probably know, buses outside London are run primarily on a commercial basis, where the operator is free to set fares and times as they see fit. The only funding most routes get is for BSOG and reimbursement for accepting free passes.

The local authority then looks to see if there are any gaps in the commercial network and subsidises operators to run services in these gaps. By definition, where and when demand is lower.

Almost all daytime urban services are commercial, whereas rural services (where they still exist) are typically subsidised.

Because the daytime urban services are run commercially, they are assumed to be good enough, when in actual fact they are mostly unattractive and people with access to a car largely avoid them.

But urban areas during the daytime is where the problems with car usage are most acute. So it would make more sense to target the investment and subsidy here.
I think that Inter-urban / rural-urban journeys produce significantly more of that urban congestion than you seem to think.

Subsequently I think that inter-urban bus and rail services which serve rural areas in between the urban areas can be an effective way to reduce that urban (and motorway) congestion.
 

radamfi

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There's a general trend in this thread that public transport investment should be concentrated on densely populated urban areas. So, what happens to everyone else?

What about regional towns (and cities) that are already blighted by traffic congestion? You really can't just ignore those areas - we need solutions, and that doesn't just mean making people move to the biggest cities!

Public transport can work in low density suburban areas and modest sized towns, as it does in Switzerland for example, but not really in proper rural areas. We're not requiring people to live in big cities. Smaller towns like Shrewsbury and Taunton should be able to sustain decent services and usage. However, cycling should really be a more obvious solution in smaller towns given the short distances involved.
 

PeterC

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Why can't he go on his own? Parents do not have to go to open days, and a student can get used to travelling e.g. by coach rather than rail, and stay in a youth hostel.

I similarly doubt the former story is, unless the student has a disability so can neither walk nor cycle, anything other than an "it's not fair" whine. There is always a way. You don't even have to go to open days to apply; there's enough online and printed information out there too.
Back in 1969 nobody would have been seen dead with their parents on a university visit. I went through the process twice as I needed a resit to improve a grade and in two rounds of visits I didn't see a single person with their parents.

Fares are another matter, back then anytime fares were pretty reasonable. Even doing London - Manchester - Cardiff - London on successive days with three single fares (overnight with relations) wasn't totally outrageous.
 

Bletchleyite

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Fares are another matter, back then anytime fares were pretty reasonable. Even doing London - Manchester - Cardiff - London on successive days with three single fares (overnight with relations) wasn't totally outrageous.

Train fares are certainly pricey these days, but there is Nat Ex and Megabus as well as Blablacar and the likes. There are options.
 

radamfi

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I think that Inter-urban / rural-urban journeys produce significantly more of that urban congestion than you seem to think.

Subsequently I think that inter-urban bus and rail services which serve rural areas in between the urban areas can be an effective way to reduce that urban (and motorway) congestion.

Public transport mode shares even in modest sized cities such as Zurich can be 40% or more but you would be unlikely to get that on inter-urban travel. So I would improve the proper urban services first, but of course there should be good inter-urban services.
 

JamesRowden

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Public transport mode shares even in modest sized cities such as Zurich can be 40% or more but you would be unlikely to get that on inter-urban travel. So I would improve the proper urban services first, but of course there should be good inter-urban services.
You would if you increased the price of driving to subsidise public transport. Those who continue to drive would pay more but have faster journeys due to lower congestion. Those who presently use public transport would have a better service. Those who switch from driving to public transport will have decided for themselves that the lower price of using improved public transport was better than the convenience of driving.
 

6Gman

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There's a general trend in this thread that public transport investment should be concentrated on densely populated urban areas. So, what happens to everyone else? What about kids that have to go to their local sink school because there are no buses to better schools (or their parents can't afford the exorbitant bus pass costs). What about workers who are trapped in low paid jobs (or unemployed) because they can't get public transport to/from better paid work? Not everyone can drive, and if they can, not everyone can afford the costs of running a car. And car drivers are the enemy these days anyway, so likely to be hit further by higher taxes, road charging, etc. What about regional towns (and cities) that are already blighted by traffic congestion? You really can't just ignore those areas - we need solutions, and that doesn't just mean making people move to the biggest cities!

Glibly saying a 2 hourly service is fine because few people use it is massively missing the point - the people living in those areas are being denied a proper public transport service, and denied access to better schools, jobs, etc. You simply can't function a normal life of attending school or a workplace on a 2 hourly service. If there was a better service, more people would use it and it would open up options for people.

Only a couple of days ago, I was reading an article about a "bright" youngster who simply couldn't get to "better" university open days because of the scarcity and cost of public transport. She was basically condemned to her local ex-poly uni's for which her grades and aspirations were too high. It really shouldn't be like that. But, we're going through the same with our son - every university he's put on his wish list, we've researched train travel instead with buses at each end of the train journey, and the timings weren't good, but the costs all in were simply ridiculous for 3 of us (yes, looking at cheapest advance fares) - not to mention needing overnight accommodation because of crap weekend services, so we're crossing the country by car instead saving several hundred pounds. If we didn't have a car, he wouldn't be visiting the best universities.

When did attending an Open Day become part of the process of going to University?

I first set eyes on my university when I arrived to register. Having got there by train, with all my belongings in a suitcase.
 

DanDaDriver

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When did attending an Open Day become part of the process of going to University?

I first set eyes on my university when I arrived to register. Having got there by train, with all my belongings in a suitcase.

About the time you started paying for it for most of your working life.
 

TUC

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As you probably know, buses outside London are run primarily on a commercial basis, where the operator is free to set fares and times as they see fit. The only funding most routes get is for BSOG and reimbursement for accepting free passes.

The local authority then looks to see if there are any gaps in the commercial network and subsidises operators to run services in these gaps. By definition, where and when demand is lower.

Almost all daytime urban services are commercial, whereas rural services (where they still exist) are typically subsidised.

Because the daytime urban services are run commercially, they are assumed to be good enough, when in actual fact they are mostly unattractive and people with access to a car largely avoid them.

Evenings maybe, but in what ways are daytime services unattractive in most cities and towns?
.
Tfl is financed entirely by fares advertising and local taxes now it has lost its revenue grant
But capital expenditure is heavily subsidised. That is what neeeds diverting away from London.
 

TUC

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The best way forward would be for the government to get serious about moving all major government departments out of London and incentivising businesses to do the same. Then lots of Londoners will need to move to other places, and campaign for better public transport where they now live whilst also paying much lower house prices. Everyone’s a winner.
 

TUC

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When did attending an Open Day become part of the process of going to University?

I first set eyes on my university when I arrived to register. Having got there by train, with all my belongings in a suitcase.
Did you not want to visit it and others first to decide if it met what you needed?
 

hwl

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But capital expenditure is heavily subsidised. That is what needs diverting away from London.
Rather than diverting, how about areas outside London copying what London does and funding some of their local infrastructure projects with a local funding element?
 

TUC

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Rather than diverting, how about areas outside London copying what London does and funding some of their local infrastructure projects with a local funding element?
Because London"s capital expenditure is heavily subsidised by central government. Why should other areas have to fund for themselves what London gets for free from the government?
 

hwl

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The best way forward would be for the government to get serious about moving all major government departments out of London and incentivising businesses to do the same. Then lots of Londoners will need to move to other places, and campaign for better public transport where they now live whilst also paying much lower house prices. Everyone’s a winner.

Previous times that the government has moved parts of department outside London, staff have just left in droves for example see the PAC reports into the ONS Newport saga.

For some more international businesses it is London area or not in the UK (e.g. the firm my wife works for)
 

underbank

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The best way forward would be for the government to get serious about moving all major government departments out of London and incentivising businesses to do the same. Then lots of Londoners will need to move to other places, and campaign for better public transport where they now live whilst also paying much lower house prices. Everyone’s a winner.

I fully agree. We need a host of incentives to get people working closer to home. Such as a full review of the business rate system, lower employers NIC for employees living within x miles of the workplace, far more enterprise zones, regional development agency grants, etc. There's a growing movement towards "localism" and it can't come soon enough.
 

hwl

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Because London"s capital expenditure is heavily subsidised by central government. Why shod other areas have to fund for themselves what London gets for free from the government?
How about researching the crossrail funding arrangements in detail before commenting or don't you like facts getting in the way of your preconceived thinking? You might actually learn that London doesn't get it free!

Capital expenditure is subsidised even more heavily outside London.

Talking of subsidy:
The average Northern passenger only pays 30% of the cost of providing the service in the ticket price with 70% subsidy in various forms.
 
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TUC

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How about researching the crossrail funding arrangements in detail before commenting or don't you like fact getting in the way of you thinking? You might actually learn that London doesn't get it free!

Capital expenditure is subsidised even more heavily outside London.
.
You’re making statements without giving the details yourself.
 

TUC

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Previous times that the government has moved parts of department outside London, staff have just left in droves for example see the PAC reports into the ONS Newport saga.

For some more international businesses it is London area or not in the UK (e.g. the firm my wife works for)
Let them leave. There are plenty of talented people in the rest of the country to do the work if Londoners are too insular to make the kind of move they expect others to do in reverse.
 
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