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Does the NRCoT apply to cross-London transfers, and can you claim delay compensation from LU?

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ForTheLoveOf

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I don't think you can claim delay repay for being delayed on the tube, even with a through ticket.
If a delay to the Underground caused a knock-on delay to your journey as a whole you can claim delay compensation from TfL.
 

AlterEgo

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If a delay to the Underground caused a knock-on delay to your journey as a whole you can claim delay compensation from TfL.

On TfL Rail and Overground this is correct, but this is not true for journeys on the Underground, which is not covered by the NRCoT.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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On TfL Rail and Overground this is correct, but this is not true for journeys on the Underground, which is not covered by the NRCoT.
You are still entitled to delay compensation - not necessarily the same level of delay compensation offered by franchised TOCs under Delay Repay, but certainly something. I also don't know why you are suggesting that the NRCoT wouldn't apply to travel on the Underground, if you've bought a ticket that covers your Underground travel and says on the back that it is "issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel". That's not to say TfL's Conditions of Carriage can't also apply at the same time.
 

AlterEgo

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You are still entitled to delay compensation - not necessarily the same level of delay compensation offered by franchised TOCs under Delay Repay, but certainly something. I also don't know why you are suggesting that the NRCoT wouldn't apply to travel on the Underground, if you've bought a ticket that covers your Underground travel and says on the back that it is "issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel". That's not to say TfL's Conditions of Carriage can't also apply at the same time.

Tube journeys are covered by TfL's Conditions of Carriage for Underground and Bus, not the NRCoT.

Having your ticket printed on stock which says "NRCoT" doesn't mean the conditions apply any more than if they erroneously said they were subject to British Airways' conditions of carriage. You can't travel under two conditions of carriage.

You can claim delay compensation only for the cost of the Tube journey.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Tube journeys are covered by TfL's Conditions of Carriage for Underground and Bus, not the NRCoT.

Having your ticket printed on stock which says "NRCoT" doesn't mean the conditions apply any more than if they erroneously said they were subject to British Airways' conditions of carriage. You can't travel under two conditions of carriage.

You can claim delay compensation only for the cost of the Tube journey.
Who says two conditions of carriage can't apply? Where are the Tube Conditions of Carriage even referenced when you buy a ticket?

It is all mired in such legal quagmire that TfL would be quite silly to try and pay only a pittance in compensation based on the value of the Tube subsection of the journey. Certainly, if they did this to me I would not hesitate to take legal action as it's quite clearly unacceptable.
 

AlterEgo

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Certainly, if they did this to me I would not hesitate to take legal action as it's quite clearly unacceptable.

Of course you would. Feel free to attempt to apply the NRCoT - which explicitly excludes London Underground, and which explicitly explains it applies only to journeys made on the National Rail network - to a Tube journey, and let us know the result.
 
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Fawkes Cat

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Tube journeys are covered by TfL's Conditions of Carriage for Underground and Bus, not the NRCoT.

Indeed. let's have a look at what NRCoT has to say (March 2018 version, downloaded via https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%20of%20Travel.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiI272LyOHiAhWEtXEKHdQeDbgQFjAEegQICBAG&usg=AOvVaw0_JTaGfQWENfQte1sKzOHl)

Part A: A summary of the Conditions
The terms and conditions of these National Rail Conditions of Travel are set out below in Part C
to Part H (the “Conditions”). They comprise the binding contract that comes into effect between
you and the Train Companies
that provide scheduled rail services on the National Rail Network,
when you purchase a Ticket.
(my bold)

Appendix A:
List of Train Companies to which the National Rail Conditions of
Travel apply as at 11 March 2018
• Abellio Greater Anglia Limited (trading as Greater Anglia)
• Abellio Scotrail Ltd (trading as ScotRail)
• Arriva Rail North Ltd (trading as Northern)
• Arriva Trains Wales/Trenau Arriva Cymru Limited
• c2c Rail Limited
• East Coast Main Line Company Limited (trading as Virgin Trains East Coast)
• East Midlands Trains Limited
• First Greater Western Limited (trading as Great Western Railway)
• First Greater Western Limited/Heathrow Airport Holdings Limited (trading as
• Heathrow Connect)
• First TransPennine Express Limited (trading as TransPennine Express)
• Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd (trading as Great Northern; Gatwick Express; Southern;
Thameslink)
• Grand Central Railway Company Limited
• Hull Trains Company Limited
• West Midlands Trains Limited (trading as West Midlands Railway and London Northwestern
Railway)
• London Overground Rail Operations Limited (trading as London Overground)
• London & South Eastern Railway Limited (trading as Southeastern)
• Merseyrail Electrics 2002 Limited (trading as Merseyrail)
• MTR Corporation (Crossrail) Limited (trading as TfL Rail)
• Serco Caledonian Sleepers Ltd (trading as Caledonian Sleepers)
• First MTR South Western Trains Limited (trading as South Western Railway; Island Line)
• The Chiltern Railway Company Limited (trading as Chiltern Railways)
• West Coast Trains Limited (trading as Virgin Trains)
• XC Trains Limited (trading as CrossCountry)
An up to date current list is available at station ticket offices, telesales offices, the National Rail
website and travel agents licensed to sell National Rail Tickets. At these places you will also be
able to obtain telephone numbers and addresses for correspondence with each of the above companies
(note the absence of any organizations operating London Underground services)

Appendix B:
Definitions
In this contract:
(...)

“National Rail Network” means the network of railway lines over which Train Companies
operate scheduled passenger railway services;
(...)

While a ticket valid on the Underground might be issued on stock applying the NRCoT, the first paragraph of the NRCoT disapplies it from Underground services.
 

etr221

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Hmmm ... what NRCoT does not do is make any reference to TfL's CoC (or indeed any other non-NR carrier's), so my attitude would be that, having bought a ticket from NR, for an NR journey (from one NR station to another, on an NR supplied itinerary), which specified that NRCoT applied, then my contract is with (collectively) NR, and if there is a delay ('delayed in reaching destination') then the compensation, etc. would be as per the NRCoT - claimable from one or other relevant ToC - and that it would be for them to claim back off TfL if and as appropriate.

If on the other hand, the NRCoT did say 'TfL CoC apply for any part of the journey they provide' (or words to that effect), then things might be different - but they don't.
 

AlterEgo

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Hmmm ... what NRCoT does not do is make any reference to TfL's CoC (or indeed any other non-NR carrier's), so my attitude would be that, having bought a ticket from NR, for an NR journey (from one NR station to another, on an NR supplied itinerary), which specified that NRCoT applied, then my contract is with (collectively) NR, and if there is a delay ('delayed in reaching destination') then the compensation, etc. would be as per the NRCoT - claimable from one or other relevant ToC - and that it would be for them to claim back off TfL if and as appropriate.

If on the other hand, the NRCoT did say 'TfL CoC apply for any part of the journey they provide' (or words to that effect), then things might be different - but they don't.

But if you're delayed on the Tube on a journey from, say, Woking to Milton Keynes, there is no "relevant TOC" to claim from. London Underground are not a TOC and their conditions apply whether you were informed about it at the time of sale or not. Same goes with SailRail or journeys involving a water crossing.
 

alistairlees

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Plusbus tickets are printed on normal CCST stock. Does the NRCoT apply to bus companies?
 

transmanche

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If on the other hand, the NRCoT did say 'TfL CoC apply for any part of the journey they provide' (or words to that effect), then things might be different - but they don't.
They do.

NRCOT said:
4.4 Some Tickets entitle you to goods or services from another party (for instance the right to travel on bus services). Where this is the case your Ticket is also evidence of a contract between you and that other party, whose own conditions will apply when using their services.
 

Llanigraham

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Who says two conditions of carriage can't apply? Where are the Tube Conditions of Carriage even referenced when you buy a ticket?

It is all mired in such legal quagmire that TfL would be quite silly to try and pay only a pittance in compensation based on the value of the Tube subsection of the journey. Certainly, if they did this to me I would not hesitate to take legal action as it's quite clearly unacceptable.

Good luck with that.
I would suggest that you would be laughed out of Court, as has been explained above.
 

Coolzac

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On a slightly separate but important note. If you started a journey on the tube, using oyster, going to a London Terminal and then onwards from there on an advance ticket, but the tube was heavily delayed and you missed your train, would you be allowed to take a later service or would you have to buy a new ticket?

For example Westbourne Park to Kings Cross on the Underground, then Kings Cross to York on an advance ticket.

I would hope the guards would take a common sense view, but I imagine in theory you would have to buy another ticket?

What might slightly complicate matters is you can get valid itineraries from zone 1 tube stations on National Rail- so for example I typed in Notting Hill Gate to York and it comes up with an itinerary on National Rail.
 

Starmill

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so my attitude would be that, having bought a ticket from NR, for an NR journey (from one NR station to another, on an NR supplied itinerary),
From Network Rail? Network Rail don't sell tickets.
 

Tetchytyke

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If you started a journey on the tube, using oyster, going to a London Terminal and then onwards from there on an advance ticket, but the tube was heavily delayed and you missed your train, would you be allowed to take a later service or would you have to buy a new ticket?

It's not a simple question. Generally you should go to the ticket office and get the ticket endorsed. Success varies. Some seem to take the view you are only covered where you start at a NR station.

It is all mired in such legal quagmire that TfL would be quite silly to try and pay only a pittance in compensation based on the value of the Tube subsection of the journey. Certainly, if they did this to me I would not hesitate to take legal action as it's quite clearly unacceptable.

Do let us know how you get on(!)
 
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