ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[gsnedders]

Decision to terminate must have been made fairly early on then given the notices on the HML mid afternoon. Just to clarify that it wasn’t a last minute cancellation at Perth.

& when did they know the train would stop in Perth? Perhaps buses from Glasgow/Edinburgh could have been waiting for the people on board?

North of Perth you're on a single-track line, and a 2+9 HST running on a single power car is required to have a clear, unchecked, run at the two big climbs on the HML. Perth is an unsurprising place to terminate it, given it'll presumably run empty back to Edinburgh (where the power car can be repaired, versus being in Inverness and then needing a clear run at the big climbs the next day, and another PPM failure for the southbound service and however many knock-on delays that has), and it provides onward travel on both ex-Edinburgh and ex-Glasgow HML services (though yes, coaches would've probably been good in addition!).

 

[43096]

North of Perth you're on a single-track line, and a 2+9 HST running on a single power car is required to have a clear, unchecked, run at the two big climbs on the HML. Perth is an unsurprising place to terminate it, given it'll presumably run empty back to Edinburgh (where the power car can be repaired, versus being in Inverness and then needing a clear run at the big climbs the next day, and another PPM failure for the southbound service and however many knock-on delays that has), and it provides onward travel on both ex-Edinburgh and ex-Glasgow HML services (though yes, coaches would've probably been good in addition!).

Normally any malfunctioning set on the Chieftain will terminate at Edinburgh or Perth and then go empty to Craigentinny for a power car swap/battering. They will often send a set up empty to Perth in the morning to start it from there, but evidently weren’t able to this morning as it started at Edinburgh.

 

[sleeper fan]

Is the 0834 Edinburgh to Inverness still an HST as per the diagrams or has it reverted to 170 haulage?

 

[Highlandspring]

Normally any malfunctioning set on the Chieftain will terminate at Edinburgh or Perth and then go empty to Craigentinny for a power car swap/battering. They will often send a set up empty to Perth in the morning to start it from there, but evidently weren’t able to this morning as it started at Edinburgh.

They used the set ex 1S04 1112 arrival from Kings Cross to make 1E13 starting at Edinburgh - the broken HST from yesterday’s Chieftain had a powercar swap and came out of Craigy to form 1E17 1330 to Kings Cross.

 

[Railperf]

What are the rules for a 2+4 set running on one power car up the HML? Or does the lighter load mean no special rules apply?

 

[gsnedders]

What are the rules for a 2+4 set running on one power car up the HML? Or does the lighter load mean no special rules apply?

They're quoted at various points earlier in this thread; IIRC, the restrictions are for 2+7 and longer. The ScotRail sets can run without restriction on a single power car.

 

[CM]

Out of curiosity, can a 2+4 HST with one power car shut down still keep to timings?

 

[InvHst]

Is the 0834 Edinburgh to Inverness still an HST as per the diagrams or has it reverted to 170 haulage?

Nope sadly back to a 170

 

[RLBH]

Out of curiosity, can a 2+4 HST with one power car shut down still keep to timings?

One of the drivers on here has said that a 2+4 with one power car down can keep to 170 timings. Presumably once the service goes over entirely to HSTs, the faster timings won't be achieveable with one engine failed.

 

[Highlandspring]

They're quoted at various points earlier in this thread; IIRC, the restrictions are for 2+7 and longer. The ScotRail sets can run without restriction on a single power car.

Not quite correct - the Sectional Appendix General Instruction is quite complicated but allows a 2+5 or 2+4 HST to run on one powercar north of Perth and between Aberdeen and Edinburgh without being assisted subject to a number of caveats which also apply to longer HST formations under certain circumstances. This instruction is set to be reviewed shortly in light of experience gained.

 

[Northhighland]

Suggest you have a read of my previous posts on here about poor customer service on the railway before you start about attitude.

I’d also love to know where you find a load of buses/coaches at 7pm on a Sunday night in Perth.

A load of buses on a Sunday night? Well one or maybe two would have helped. A lot. Given the regularity of issues on the HML might have been prudent to have a contract in place.

Also usually 158’s kicking about Perth station at night could one of them not be added to the 170? Be a delay but surely preferable to gross overcrowding?

Neither of these suggestions seem outrageous and would have kept passengers a bit happier.

Glad you agree about customer service in Scotrail it is very poor and getting worse.

 

[Northhighland]

Decision to terminate must have been made fairly early on then given the notices on the HML mid afternoon. Just to clarify that it wasn’t a last minute cancellation at Perth.

All more reason to have some contingency applied and ready when passengers arrived in Perth.

 

[Highlandspring]

Also usually 158’s kicking about Perth station at night could one of them not be added to the 170?

That would result in short forming or cancellations at start of work on Monday morning.

 

[gingertom]

A load of buses on a Sunday night? Well one or maybe two would have helped. A lot. Given the regularity of issues on the HML might have been prudent to have a contract in place.

Also usually 158’s kicking about Perth station at night could one of them not be added to the 170? Be a delay but surely preferable to gross overcrowding?

Neither of these suggestions seem outrageous and would have kept passengers a bit happier.

Glad you agree about customer service in Scotrail it is very poor and getting worse.

Let me get this right.... LNER's Chieftain sat down and you're criticising ScotRail?

 

[sleeper fan]

Nope sadly back to a 170

Any chance it will be back to an HST by June 28th?

 

[Carntyne]

Let me get this right.... LNER's Chieftain sat down and you're criticising ScotRail?

Of course.

 

[gsnedders]

Not quite correct - the Sectional Appendix General Instruction is quite complicated but allows a 2+5 or 2+4 HST to run on one powercar north of Perth and between Aberdeen and Edinburgh without being assisted subject to a number of caveats which also apply to longer HST formations under certain circumstances. This instruction is set to be reviewed shortly in light of experience gained.

That's what I get for being too lazy to actually find the SA text again!

 

[chuff chuff]

One of the drivers on here has said that a 2+4 with one power car down can keep to 170 timings.

Yes that would be my experience.

 

[Highlandspring]

They've also run up Cowlairs incline on one powercar a couple of times now without any issue, though the 2+5 sets may be a different story...

 

[InvHst]

Any chance it will be back to an HST by June 28th?

Wouldn't hold my breath sadly only guaranteed change I know that's coming is the 0944 from Inverness to Edinburgh going back to HST operated from 19th August so at moment I would say no

 

[sleeper fan]

Wouldn't hold my breath sadly only guaranteed change I know that's coming is the 0944 from Inverness to Edinburgh going back to HST operated from 19th August so at moment I would say no

That's unfortunate looks like it will be a 170 all the way from Edinburgh to Inverness what fun lets hope its not to busy!

 

[chuff chuff]

They've also run up Cowlairs incline on one powercar a couple of times now without any issue, though the 2+5 sets may be a different story...

I think there only allowed to run ecs out queen street with one power car.

 

[43096]

If you can't find a bus or coach or two in Perth, worldwide headquarters of Stagecoach, then there is something wrong with the world.

Was waiting for some smart arse to come up with that one. May be vehicles around, but how many drivers are sat spare at that time?

 

[Killingworth]

Was waiting for some smart arse to come up with that one. May be vehicles around, but how many drivers are sat spare at that time?

Here in the Peak District there's a coach owning firm near the village of Tideswell, in the middle of nowhere much, who appear to have a standby contract to provide buses urgently in times of sudden crisis. I'm sure there'll be a similar arrangement in Perth. I'd suspect nobody called them.

 

[Highlandspring]

I think there only allowed to run ecs out queen street with one power car.

It seems that at least one has run up there in service... HSTs running about on one powercar is a bit of a topic at the moment but I’m sure it’ll all get sorted out eventually.

 

[chuff chuff]

It seems that at least one ran in service... HSTs running about on one powercar is a bit of a hot topic at the moment.

Yeah I know,especially when someone refuses to take one in that condition.

 

[Northhighland]

That would result in short forming or cancellations at start of work on Monday morning.

It is a two hour journey to Inverness. It is two hours back as well. Plenty time and paths. If the will existed to do it.

As to the issue around LNER. Well imagine the travelling public thinking that the TOC’s might work together to assist passengers.

I would say the responses are indicative of the way passengers are treated and thought of. There is a real need to sort out customer care in Scotrail.

 

[Highlandspring]

It is a two hour journey to Inverness. It is two hours back as well. Plenty time and paths. If the will existed to do it.

Where would the driver come from to run the unit back to Perth? The backshift spare men will all have been used by then. Perhaps you could use the Inverness or Perth nightshift shed drivers when they book on but then none of the sets would get fuelled, washed or tanked while they’re away and that would mean toilets locked out or units being pulled off diagram early the next day due to being out of fuel miles. Presumably the driver will need sent in a taxi one way or the other but how does that work out for their PNB and what impact will it have on the rest of their job?

It’s notoriously difficult to schedule additional traffic on the Highland Main Line because of the long single line sections and the obligation not to impact booked WTT traffic; have you actually identified a robust VSTP path that can be validated and works in terms of driver hours/PNBs? Will you be wanting to hold off possessions to allow the unit to return to Perth after close of service? Is the ODM agreeable to that and what do you do if he’s not? Are all the signalboxes open?

Despite what the amateur expert railwaymen think nothing is ever as simple as “just” doing something.

 

[Northhighland]

Where would the driver come from to run the unit back to Perth? The backshift spare men will all have been used by then. Perhaps you could use the Inverness or Perth nightshift shed drivers when they book on but then none of the sets would get fuelled, washed or tanked while they’re away and that would mean toilets locked out or units being pulled off diagram early the next day due to being out of fuel miles. Presumably the driver will need sent in a taxi one way or the other but how does that work out for their PNB and what impact will it have on the rest of their job?

It’s notoriously difficult to schedule additional traffic on the Highland Main Line because of the long single line sections and the obligation not to impact booked WTT traffic; have you actually identified a robust VSTP path that can be validated and works in terms of driver hours/PNBs? Will you be wanting to hold off possessions to allow the unit to return to Perth after close of service? Is the ODM agreeable to that and what do you do if he’s not? Are all the signalboxes open?

Despite what the amateur expert railwaymen think nothing is ever as simple as “just” doing something.

If you were as good at solving problems as you are at creating them this wouldn’t be a discussion.

If customers were at the heart of decision making this wouldn’t be a discussion.

How does the rest of the world solve problems every single day? Other transport sectors deal with issues every day without treating their customers like cattle.

Had the HST’s been introduced effectively this would have been less of a problem.

This all really points to one clear issue. Customers, fare paying passengers in particular, but the wider sense of that word as well in those that pay the subsidy for the railway, have a right to expect a little better.

Successful businesses are those that understand the relationship between customer satisfaction and public perception of their business.

 

[haggishunter]

How does the rest of the world solve problems every single day? Other transport sectors deal with issues every day without treating their customers like cattle.

Well I'd beg to differ on that after arriving in Stansted on a BA flight on Saturday, no airbridges available, parked up at a remote stand, 20 minutes to get steps to the plane, then a further 40minutes for ground crew that could operate the steps / get them in place - over an hour after touchdown to get off the plane and then another 30minutes to get baggage after being bussed into the terminal. Complete sh!teshow!

But it's all systematic of a similar attitude / root problem, of trying to do things with inadequate staffing resources to provide an acceptable service. Back to trains on the HML and other rural lines, its one thing a train being cancelled when there is another along in under 30minutes, a different matter all together on rural lines with just a handful of services a day.