Bus route numbers

[Ken H]

I followed a Stagecoach bus between Kirkby Lonsdale and Kendal yesterday. It was route 567

Why do remote areas need such high numbered routes? I know you dont want the same route number on different routes near each other but 567 is daft. Its an old Ribble number, i think, all Cumbrian routes seems to be in the 500's. Doesnt help people who have difficulty with numbers though.

And why are so many buse routes X numbers when they are no expresses. The bus from coniston to barrow is the X12. Why? Its a village bus.
The X84 stops everywhere between Skipton and Leeds except it doesnt stop everywhere through Headingley. But express?

And while we are on Leeds, the buses up Scott Hall Road used to be 69 (Cramner bank) 70(Primley Park)*, 34 and 35 Alwoodley Circular and 37 Shadwell

The 69 went and Cramner bank was (still is) served by Meanwood Road buses. 34 went as the top of Harrogate Road is served by the 48 and the 36. But the Primley Park, Alwoodley and Shadwells all share number 7, so we have 7, 7a and 7s. Why not use 3 separate numbers with no suffix?

the Skipton-Lancaster bus is 580,581 and 582 and changes number at Settle and Kirkby Lonsdale. I think its some EU directive but must be confusing for passengers.

</rant>


*The 70 changed to a 71 some years ago. Dunno why.

 

[transmanche]

Why do remote areas need such high numbered routes? [...] Its an old Ribble number, i think, all Cumbrian routes seems to be in the 500's.

You've answered your own question there.

Across the Pennines around Tyne & Wear: buses numbered xx were Newcastle and Gateshead, 1xx was Sunderland, 2xx East Co. Durham, 3xx North Tyneside/South East Northumberland, 4xx North Northumberland, 5xx South Shields, 6xx Tyne Valley/West Northumberland and 7xx West Co. Durham. (Area descriptions very rough). Still today the 685 wends its way from Newcastle to Carlisle.

And why are so many buse routes X numbers when they are no expresses.[...] The X84 stops everywhere between Skipton and Leeds except it doesnt stop everywhere through Headingley.

Again, you've answered your own question. It doesn't serve every stop, so the operator has chosen to indicate this by using an X.

I think its some EU directive but must be confusing for passengers.

I really think you need to take off your tinfoil hat...

 

[PeterC]

These days I believe that all routes have to be registered with a number but like most legislation that gets blamed on the EU it is entirely down to Westminster.

But the Primley Park, Alwoodley and Shadwells all share number 7, so we have 7, 7a and 7s. Why not use 3 separate numbers with no suffix?

I don't know the area but the reason for suffixes is normally that the routes share a common core. COMS do this throughout Oxford with a number indicating which primary route out of the city is used and the A, B, C showing the local variations in the outer suburbs.

 

[transmanche]

I don't know the area but the reason for suffixes is normally that the routes share a common core. COMS do this throughout Oxford with a number indicating which primary route out of the city is used and the A, B, C showing the local variations in the outer suburbs.

And different companies have different policies on this. TfL went on a brutal round of eliminating all route numbers with suffixes; e.g. 84A became 184, 171A became 341, 217B became 317 and so on.

 

[SCH117X]

A number of operators use a number and a suffix to denote a main route and variation off it Possibly the worse use of X is by Connexions / Harrogate Coach Travel who use it simply to denote their services rather than any pretence as being an express of any form

 

[Statto]

Does the X84 still have stopping restrictions in Leeds City area were local passengers couldn't be carried point to point[think it's Westwood Police Station to Leeds bus station], X84 derives from the old 784?

 

[njlawley]

Ken, to answer your original question...

Large numbers are as a consequence of zonal numbering. For example, SELNEC numbered routes in Stockport 30x to 37x, Tameside 38x and 39x, Oldham low 4xx, Rochdale mid 4xx, Bury high 4xx, Bolton low and mid 5xx, Leigh high 5xx and high 6xx, Wigan was reserved low and mid 6xx.

West Yorkshire and West Midlands did similar, whereas Crosville and others used letter prefixes instead.

As for X routes, some operators - Go South Coast does this nowadays - use X prefixes to mean cross-country / cross-county on longer distance routes, although they can be used for limited stop routes not just full-on express services. Xelabus in Hampshire use it to denote their services - makes sense in that regard.

 

[Andyh82]

Regarding the 7s in Leeds, this is so they can market it as a common corridor running up to every 5 minutes, unlike the previous situation where the 34, 35, 48, 71 etc etc all ran every 15-30 mins and to the average punter looked much more complicated.

Some operators keep high numbers from the old days, others renumber everything to low numbers, enthusiasts generally dislike the latter, as it means the same operator ends up running a 1, a 2, a 3 etc in every town they serve

 

[Lynford1976]

A lot of the route numbers are still based around the Market Analysis Project (MAP) network reviews undertaken by the National Bus Company subsidiaries in the 1970's/1980's.

In the East Kent / Maidstone & District area for example, the historical route numbers were replaced by the following area-based system:

1 - 99: Maidstone area (services co-ordinated with the Maidstone Borough Council's transport department)
100 - 199: Medway
200 - 299: Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells
300 - 399: Swale (mainly)
400 - 499: Hastings
500 - 599: Ashford, Folkestone and Dover
600 - 699: Canterbury and Thanet
700 - 799: Limited-stop services
900 - 999: London Express services and National Express routes

With the passing of NBC, the network in west Kent has largely retained this system. In east Kent, Stagecoach have reverted to using two-digit numbers.

 

[Typhoon]

I followed a Stagecoach bus between Kirkby Lonsdale and Kendal yesterday. It was route 567

Why do remote areas need such high numbered routes? I know you dont want the same route number on different routes near each other but 567 is daft. Its an old Ribble number, i think, all Cumbrian routes seems to be in the 500's. Doesnt help people who have difficulty with numbers though.

A look at the Cumbria bus map shows that Kirkby Lonsdale is served by four bus routes run by three operators on pretty wide frequencies, I don't think anyone is likely to get confused by the numbering. I personally think 567 is very memorable (unlike, say, 581). Cities are more of a problem.

If operators change numbers, occasional users complain that they don't know which bus is which. They can't win.

 

[Typhoon]

A lot of the route numbers are still based around the Market Analysis Project (MAP) network reviews undertaken by the National Bus Company subsidiaries in the 1970's/1980's.

In the East Kent / Maidstone & District area for example, the historical route numbers were replaced by the following area-based system:
...
400 - 499: Hastings
...

Convenient, as in Kent the 400's were used by London Country. I seem to remember M&D routes into Gravesend were in the 300's too (some still are).

 

[carlberry]

These days I believe that all routes have to be registered with a number but like most legislation that gets blamed on the EU it is entirely down to Westminster.
.

Theres no requirement for any kind of number/identifier (and lots of school services are registered that way), however it does make things difficult for passengers.

 

[carlberry]

Regarding the 7s in Leeds, this is so they can market it as a common corridor running up to every 5 minutes, unlike the previous situation where the 34, 35, 48, 71 etc etc all ran every 15-30 mins and to the average punter looked much more complicated.

Some operators keep high numbers from the old days, others renumber everything to low numbers, enthusiasts generally dislike the latter, as it means the same operator ends up running a 1, a 2, a 3 etc in every town they serve

Passengers dislike renumbering as well. It means something they're used to (or is advertised on a bus stop/advert/book) has changed because somebody in marketing thinks it's trendy.

 

[Samuel88]

Passengers dislike renumbering as well. It means something they're used to (or is advertised on a bus stop/advert/book) has changed because somebody in marketing thinks it's trendy.

National Express West Midlands are probably the worst offenders when it comes to renumbering routes. The route I most use while I'm up there (Merry Hill- Birmingham) has changed number three times in 10 years!

 

[ashkeba]

I think in the former Avon, services numbered over 800 were council contracts, so service 6 became 806 when the council stepped in to avoid an area with many pensioners being left unserved evenings and weekends.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Passengers dislike renumbering as well. It means something they're used to (or is advertised on a bus stop/advert/book) has changed because somebody in marketing thinks it's trendy.

I remember Kentish Bus renumbered their routes in the late 80s from the 4xx series, and subsequently started to renumber them back to their old numbers again shortly afterwards

 

[Jordan Adam]

Stagecoach North Scotland in the past have been particularly bad when it comes to the misuse of "X" numbers. For example the X17, X20, 25X, 34X. None of which have slow variants! The X20 is perhaps the worst as there's also a 420 variation which is actually more direct!

 

[Busaholic]

Convenient, as in Kent the 400's were used by London Country. I seem to remember M&D routes into Gravesend were in the 300's too (some still are).

When I lived in Sittingbourne in early 1970s we had the 26 to Gravesend in one direction and Faversham in the other - a 10 minute frequency pertained all day on the Gravesend to Sittingbourne leg iirc, but only half hourly on to Faversham. Other routes around Sittingbourne had 3xx nos, and the 26 quickly became 326 too, I think, but the frequency reduced to 15 mins. A long time ago, but that's what I remember: 343 to Rodmersham Green?

 

[MotCO]

A more familiar example relates to the old London Transport routes.
1-199 : originally double deck routes
200 - 289: originally single deck routes
290 - 299: night routes
300 - 399: London Country (north of the Thames)
400 - 499: London Country (south of the Thames)
500 - 699: Trolley buses.

Source: http://www.red-rf.com/lt_operations_-_general/lt_route_numbering.aspx

 

[transmanche]

A more familiar example relates to the old London Transport routes.
1-199 : originally double deck routes
200 - 289: originally single deck routes
290 - 299: night routes
300 - 399: London Country (north of the Thames)
400 - 499: London Country (south of the Thames)
500 - 699: Trolley buses.

Don't forget:
7xx Green Line
8xx Country routes in New Towns

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You've answered your own question there.

Across the Pennines around Tyne & Wear: buses numbered xx were Newcastle and Gateshead, 1xx was Sunderland, 2xx East Co. Durham, 3xx North Tyneside/South East Northumberland, 4xx North Northumberland, 5xx South Shields, 6xx Tyne Valley/West Northumberland and 7xx West Co. Durham. (Area descriptions very rough). Still today the 685 wends its way from Newcastle to Carlisle.

As with other renumberings, the North East scheme was done when the first computers were introduced so they avoided duplication.

2** was also used for Teesside services.

* and ** were used for South and mid Durham (and most northerly North Yorkshire).

1** was also used by United in Scarborough and Ripon.

 

[Statto]

Ribble area was a bit more complex, the numbers started from 100, 1xx was Central Lancashire[Preston, Blackpool so on] 2xx was East Lancashire[Burnley], 3xx was West Lancashire, Cumbria was 5xx & 6xx, however some areas had prefix letters, Liverpool was Lx/Lxx, Chorley was Cx/Cxx so on.

Crosville renumbered every service in the late 50s with prefix letters, the prefix letters defining area, such as
Axx Deeside & the Flintshire coast
Bxx Mold
Cxx Chester
Dxx Wrexham
Exx East Cheshire
Fxx Wirral, although late 70s, the Wirral area routes solely in Merseyside PTE area were renumbered 72 to 89
Gxx was used for a couple of services
Hxx Liverpool & Halton
Jxx some services in Halton
Kxx Crewe & Nantwich
Lxx Limited Stop
Mxx North Wales Coast, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay & Llandudno
Nxx Bangor, Caernarfon, Anglesey
Rxx Mid Gwynedd
Sxx South Gwynedd & Aberystwyth
Txx Runcorn Busway

Some of the numbers were kept well after d-reg & into the early 00s

 

[Mal]

Ribble area was a bit more complex, the numbers started from 100, 1xx was Central Lancashire[Preston, Blackpool so on] 2xx was East Lancashire[Burnley], 3xx was West Lancashire, Cumbria was 5xx & 6xx, however some areas had prefix letters, Liverpool was Lx/Lxx, Chorley was Cx/Cxx so on.

Crosville renumbered every service in the late 50s with prefix letters, the prefix letters defining area, such as
Axx Deeside & the Flintshire coast
Bxx Mold
Cxx Chester
Dxx Wrexham
Exx East Cheshire
Fxx Wirral, although late 70s, the Wirral area routes solely in Merseyside PTE area were renumbered 72 to 89
Gxx was used for a couple of services
Hxx Liverpool & Halton
Jxx some services in Halton
Kxx Crewe & Nantwich
Lxx Limited Stop
Mxx North Wales Coast, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay & Llandudno
Nxx Bangor, Caernarfon, Anglesey
Rxx Mid Gwynedd
Sxx South Gwynedd & Aberystwyth
Txx Runcorn Busway

Some of the numbers were kept well after d-reg & into the early 00s

G numbers were used in Wrexham, J was used for non-busway services in Runcorn and I'm certain there were a few Pxx routes round Prestatyn as well.

 

[JetBlast]

Rosso runs a service called Red4. How does this work? Is 4 the official allocated route number?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/eybusman/40409570803/in/pool-2112923@N22/

 

[GusB]

Don't people get used to route numbers, even though they may be 3 digits? For as long as I can remember my local route was 331 (it was historically just 31). The route from big town to the neighbouring small town was 332. 329/330 was the toon service. You get the picture. Then some bright spark comes along and renumbers everything. What was 329/30 and 332 becomes 33A and 33C - not in itself a problem as the town services of big town and small town are combined, but then MY route suddenly becomes 32 when the logical thing to do would be to just drop the initial 3 and make it 31 as it was previously. Then for a while it became 36 as my local route was interworked with those to Dufftown...
Does it really matter whether a route number has 2 or 3 digits? I don't think it does, but I do get annoyed when they change the numbers when there's no real change to the actual routes!

 

[Statto]

Don't people get used to route numbers, even though they may be 3 digits? For as long as I can remember my local route was 331 (it was historically just 31). The route from big town to the neighbouring small town was 332. 329/330 was the toon service. You get the picture. Then some bright spark comes along and renumbers everything. What was 329/30 and 332 becomes 33A and 33C - not in itself a problem as the town services of big town and small town are combined, but then MY route suddenly becomes 32 when the logical thing to do would be to just drop the initial 3 and make it 31 as it was previously. Then for a while it became 36 as my local route was interworked with those to Dufftown...
Does it really matter whether a route number has 2 or 3 digits? I don't think it does, but I do get annoyed when they change the numbers when there's no real change to the actual routes!

NXWM are notorious for that, i suspect that's what your on about, the Wolverhampton-Stourbridge route was 256 since been renumbered in the Dudley changes, i've forgotten what the new number is[i think it's 16] it's annoying when there's no real change to the route.

Although having said that, sometimes it's internal matters like processing the route through, after Arriva brought MTL, Arriva changed all the numbers because there internal systems couldn't handle them, so Wirral area was renumbered into the 4xx series, some Liverpool numbers changed, the old 75 was renumbered 15, 35 renumbered 75,, 92 was renumbered 62 to fitr in with the Bootle 6x series of routes that didn't serve Liverpool city centre, whilst Bootle routes that did which weren't in the 5x series, were renumbered 5x series.

 

[Typhoon]

I remember Kentish Bus renumbered their routes in the late 80s from the 4xx series, and subsequently started to renumber them back to their old numbers again shortly afterwards

You are right. I seem to remember that the routes numbers were low, lots in the 20s, little resemblance to former numbers. Chaos. PR disaster.

 

[Typhoon]

A long time ago, but that's what I remember: 343 to Rodmersham Green?

343 to Rodmersham Green. Still runs, sir, still runs. Extended to Bredgar.
I actually think that 343 is more memorable than 43, which would be the usual abbreviation of numbers. A three figure number with a pattern is more likely stay in the memory than a two figure number without. So the OPs 567 trips off the tongue as does East Kent's 111 and 123# and who can forget the 666, the bus route of the Beast. In most of these cases it actually doesn't matter, for much of the route they are the only bus.

# not their original numbers unfortunately.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

This is why we have multiple no 1's in Chester. The D1 to Wrexham and the C1 to Liverpool (much rerouted) are now both simply 1's, as is the old Chester City 1 to Blacon.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

In West Yorkshire, when Metro was set up in the 1970's, Leeds pulled rank and kept its numbers unchanged.

Bradford was forced to add 600 to its numbers, Halifax 500 and Huddersfield 300. Buses in the Wakefield/Heavy Woollen/Castleford areas variously started 100+, 200+ and 400+ but I can't remember the exact details. I think 700+ numbers were used in the Keighley area. However the Keighley bus company quite recently broke ranks and renumbered its Bradford - Thornton - Keighley services simply 67 and 68.