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The Green belt and the Underground

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Samuel88

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If the Green belt had not been established around London after WW2, would we have seen more Underground extensions? I know the Central line was originally intended to go beyond West Ruislip to Denham, but perhaps in time there would have been further extensions to Gerrards Cross, or maybe the Aylesbury line would have stayed with LU?
 
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transmanche

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If the Green belt had not been established around London after WW2, would we have seen more Underground extensions? I know the Central line was originally intended to go beyond West Ruislip to Denham, but perhaps in time there would have been further extensions to Gerrards Cross, or maybe the Aylesbury line would have stayed with LU?
It's probably worth noting that the Central line extensions (both eastwards and westwards) and much of the planned Northern line extensions were over existing LNER routes. It was the planned new Northern line extension to Bushey Heath that was really scuppered by the Green Belt.

I suspect that lack of money and the politics of nationalising of LNER and LPTB as parts of the BTC played a part too.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Post war Austerity Britain was stuffed by the dire shortage of capital and resources (steel in particular) - the decision to complete the Central Line extensions was given the highest priority , (completed in part by the GWR) , albeit cut back to West Ruislip. There was scarcely enough around to do essential track renewals on the core network , let alone build much needed rolling stock and replacement locomotives. All micro managed by the BTC and Central Government.

But yes - WW2 stopped the "unstoppable" spread of suburban development , and the Town and Country Planning Act of 1947 formalised the Green Belt (and later New Towns) - well covered by the works of Alan A Jackson , see "Semi-Detached London" in particular. Probably a good idea as further "tube" extensions would have overloaded the inner sections of the Underground in particular. (more than they were already in those non car commuting eras)
 

John Webb

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There is a detailed analysis of the proposed Northern Line extension in "By Tube beyond Edgware" by Tony Beard (Capital Transport Publishing, 2002, ISBN 1 815414 246 1) It also recounts how the planned depot at Aldenham was in 1940 converted into an aircraft factory.
 
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LUYMun

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maybe the Aylesbury line would have stayed with LU?
I doubt the Green Belt caused the Metropolitan line's stoppage to Aylesbury. By then, the section of the line was well-used but London Transport transferred it to British Rail so they can run its services to the North (like Woodhead via the Great Central Railway, which stopped in the 1960s). It's possible to extend back to Aylesbury, but electrification is needed and Chiltern Railways are already happy to keep their services.
 

ChiefPlanner

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I doubt the Green Belt caused the Metropolitan line's stoppage to Aylesbury. By then, the section of the line was well-used but London Transport transferred it to British Rail so they can run its services to the North (like Woodhead via the Great Central Railway, which stopped in the 1960s). It's possible to extend back to Aylesbury, but electrification is needed and Chiltern Railways are already happy to keep their services.

The whole combination of "joint" operation north of Rickmansworth to Aylesbury was complicated , but the LPTB (on taking over the Met in 1933) , carefully considered the traffic options (closing the Brill line from Quainton and withdrawing such uneconomic delights as the Pullmans to Verney Junction) - understanding that "Metroland" was really south of Amersham with thin pickings north of there - a combination of journey time and house buyer reluctance. They (the Met) , did very well in their core territory. The Green Belt really made very little difference.
 

leytongabriel

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Wasn't the Green Belt also a major factor in the abandonment of the plan to electrify the ex GN branch to Edgware and then run the Northen line only as far as Mill Hill East? The open land between Mill Hill and Totteridge is supposed to be the nearest bit of 'countryside' to Central London.
 

PeterC

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Wasn't the Green Belt also a major factor in the abandonment of the plan to electrify the ex GN branch to Edgware and then run the Northen line only as far as Mill Hill East? The open land between Mill Hill and Totteridge is supposed to be the nearest bit of 'countryside' to Central London.
That was part of the Northern Line Extension mentioned in earlier posts. The branch was closed for electrification when war broke out but was electrified and reopened as far as Mill Hill East in 1941 to serve the barracks.

Tickets to Mill Hill (The Hale) were issued and accepted a local bus route until 1969. As a boy I spent hours trying to find The Hale on the Tube map after seeing it on the list of through fares to Underground stations at Romford.
 

judethegreat

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The branch was closed for electrification when war broke out but was electrified and reopened as far as Mill Hill East in 1941 to serve the barracks.
Thanks, didn't know that bit of the history. Presumably the Mill Hill East branch therefore would not exist now had it not been for the barracks.
 

judethegreat

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Or if it (the whole line) hadn't been closed for electrification work...

(Would likely still have closed sometime - stayed open for freight into the sixties then that was it.)
 

Adsy125

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Does anyone know why Southampton and Portsmouth didn't get one - they are two of the densest districts in the UK?
What makes it especially curious is that Southampton and Portsmouth don’t have one, but the nearby Poole Bay Area does, which is quite restrictive on towns not really part of the conurbation at all.
 

Mikey C

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Thanks, didn't know that bit of the history. Presumably the Mill Hill East branch therefore would not exist now had it not been for the barracks.

There's no way it would have been electrified if not for the barracks and the plan to go to Edgware. It would have been far more useful if the branch from Highgate to Alexandra Palace had been kept instead.
 

judethegreat

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Agreed totally (though both would be good), the latter would be excellent as a Northern line branch (and extend to the ECML station for interchange perhaps..).

However, doesn't the tube surface north of the Ally Pally junction, thus meaning a new underground junction and tunnel or two would be required?
 

Harsig

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Agreed totally (though both would be good), the latter would be excellent as a Northern line branch (and extend to the ECML station for interchange perhaps..).

However, doesn't the tube surface north of the Ally Pally junction, thus meaning a new underground junction and tunnel or two would be required?

Had the original Northern Line extension plans been fully realised the Alexandra Palace line would not have been a branch from the current Northern Line at Highgate, rather it would have remained a branch from the original route to High Barnet & Edgware which ran from Finsbury Park (where connection to the ECML would have been available). Trains to Alexandra Palace would have originated from Moorgate and run via Drayton Park, Finsbury Park and Highgate (High Level). The platforms of the latter still exist above the existing Northern Line station at Highgate. Other services from Moorgate via Drayton Park would have continued to East Finchley where they would have joined what we now think of as the Northern Line.
 

transmanche

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Agreed totally (though both would be good), the latter would be excellent as a Northern line branch (and extend to the ECML station for interchange perhaps..).
That would have been somewhat tricky, as there's a massive height difference of around 40-50 metres between the old Alexandra Palace branch terminus and the modern Alexandra Palace station on the ECML!

(Put it this way, there used to be dry ski slope on the hill between the stations...)
 

edwin_m

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That would have been somewhat tricky, as there's a massive height difference of around 40-50 metres between the old Alexandra Palace branch terminus and the modern Alexandra Palace station on the ECML!

(Put it this way, there used to be dry ski slope on the hill between the stations...)
You could use the ski lift for interchange...
There's no way it would have been electrified if not for the barracks and the plan to go to Edgware. It would have been far more useful if the branch from Highgate to Alexandra Palace had been kept instead.
The Green Belt is often cited as the reason for cancelling the Northern Heights project, but it can't be the whole story. Finchley Park to Highgate in particular passes through a built up area (Crouch End), which now has no easy access to rail service. The same is true to some extent for the Alexandra Palace branch and perhaps also parts of Mill Hill East to Edgware. None of these were affected by the Green Belt.

I'm not sure if the project was planned to tunnel from the then underground terminus of the Moorgate service at Finsbury Park to surface on the line towards Highgate, or to make a surface connection similar to what the Down GN services now use from Drayton Park. But it's a bit surprising to me that this part wasn't opened to extend the Moorgate service at least as far as East Finchley for interchange with the Northern.
 

Mikey C

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Had the original Northern Line extension plans been fully realised the Alexandra Palace line would not have been a branch from the current Northern Line at Highgate, rather it would have remained a branch from the original route to High Barnet & Edgware which ran from Finsbury Park (where connection to the ECML would have been available). Trains to Alexandra Palace would have originated from Moorgate and run via Drayton Park, Finsbury Park and Highgate (High Level). The platforms of the latter still exist above the existing Northern Line station at Highgate. Other services from Moorgate via Drayton Park would have continued to East Finchley where they would have joined what we now think of as the Northern Line.

As the current "High Barnet" branch trains emerge on the surface just north of the (current) Highgate station where there are sidings, could there have been a junction there to the Alexandra Palace line?
 

transmanche

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The Green Belt is often cited as the reason for cancelling the Northern Heights project, but it can't be the whole story. Finchley Park to Highgate in particular passes through a built up area (Crouch End), which now has no easy access to rail service. The same is true to some extent for the Alexandra Palace branch and perhaps also parts of Mill Hill East to Edgware. None of these were affected by the Green Belt.
Indeed. I think for the Alexandra Palace branch, the traffic just melted away. The direct 212 bus (now the W7) operated with a frequency of every 1-3 minutes at peak times in 1953 and by 1955 operated a peak-hour limited-stop express service. The rail route was rather circuitous, so not only was it slower than the bus but more expensive due to the distance-based pricing then in use. Plus, the steam stock used on the route was... somewhat grim.

So the passengers opted for the bus and thus the case for electrifying the became marginal - and with post-war austerity...

I'm not sure if the project was planned to tunnel from the then underground terminus of the Moorgate service at Finsbury Park to surface on the line towards Highgate, or to make a surface connection similar to what the Down GN services now use from Drayton Park. But it's a bit surprising to me that this part wasn't opened to extend the Moorgate service at least as far as East Finchley for interchange with the Northern.
There would have been a surface connection to the high-level platforms at Finsbury Park. That's one of the reasons why bits of Finsbury Park station looked so awful for decades, with partially-complete work that was finally demolished in the 1970s.

image.jpg

Source: Islington Gazette. Photograph shows girders for the partially-completed platforms and façade of Finsbury Park station.

But it's a bit surprising to me that this part wasn't opened to extend the Moorgate service at least as far as East Finchley for interchange with the Northern.
Yes, as the work was well advanced on this section. Not only were the high-level platforms at Highgate complete, building such as an electrical substation at Crouch Hill (later repurposed into a sports hall) had been completed and even now you can still see evidence of rusted cable supports, concrete cable runs, etc. When I was a kid, you could occasionally find a ceramic insulator or two.
 

transmanche

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As the current "High Barnet" branch trains emerge on the surface just north of the (current) Highgate station where there are sidings, could there have been a junction there to the Alexandra Palace line?

Trains to/from the low-level platforms at Highgate would not have been able to access the Alexandra Palace branch.

Here's a map of the area:

Screen Shot 2019-06-10 at 21.33.16.png
Image shows an annotated map of the Highgate Wood area, highlighting the location of Highgate station and the tunnel portals.

I've circled the location of Highgate station in purple. The deep-level tunnels (i.e. today's Northern line) emerge where I've put the dark blue circle. The tunnels shown on the map with the light blue circle are actually the tunnels giving access to the high-level platforms at Highgate - the station itself being in a deep cutting.

I've drawn in black the route of the Alexandra Palace branch. (Cranley Gardens station was located where the route crosses Muswell Hill Road.)

The centre platforms at East Finchley are now only used by trains going to/from Highgate depot. If the plans had been completed they would also have been used by trains to Moorgate via the high-level platforms at Highgate.
 
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Mikey C

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Trains to/from the low-level platforms at Highgate would not have been able to access the Alexandra Palace branch.

Here's a map of the area:

View attachment 64305
Image shows an annotated map of the Highgate Wood area, highlighting the location of Highgate station and the tunnel portals.

I've circled the location of Highgate station in purple. The deep-level tunnels (i.e. today's Northern line) emerge where I've put the dark blue circle. The tunnels shown on the map with the light blue circle are actually the tunnels giving access to the high-level platforms at Highgate - the station itself being in a deep cutting.

I've drawn in black the route of the Alexandra Palace branch. (Cranley Gardens station was located where the route crosses Muswell Hill Road.)

The centre platforms at East Finchley are now only used by trains going to/from Highgate depot. If the plane had been completed they would also have been used by trains to Moorgate via the high-level platforms at Highgate.

Thanks, I wasn't sure of the exact position of all the tracks in the area!
 

LUYMun

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It would have been far more useful if the branch from Highgate to Alexandra Palace had been kept instead.
Or it might be more useful if the Mill Hill East shuttle was converted to tram/light rail nowadays to make it cost effective. Possibly extending or adding more stops in between might also get passengers levels up.
 

simple simon

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But for the green belt new housing might have made the extension from Stanmore to St. Albans viable. Its my understanding that the Metropolitan Railway was contemplating this and it explains why Stanmore station was built in a way that would have made an extension very easy.

Maybe the LMS Stanmore branch would have been extended further north too (and electrified)!

Possibly the Met's plan to extend from the present-day Watford station to Watford Central station would have come to pass. As it is, the site of the planned new station was already in railway ownership and might still be owned by TfL 'today' (I am unsure - no doubt someone else will know!)

Also, when looking at railways in North London its worth remembering that the Piccadilly Line would not have been so overcrowded 'today' had both the Northern Heights line to Alexandra Palace and the Palace Gates branches remained open. The latter went to Docklands via Stratford, and whilst admittedly not ideal for central London the way Stratford has changed in recent years (Olympic Park, Westfield, etc) would have made this service 'extremely useful'. This would have been an excellent London Overground service.
 

simple simon

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Here is a diagrammatic plan...

NorthernHeightsa.gif


Its something I drew a few years ago, for use on my website. The unusual background colour matches the background image on the web page (white would have stood out like the proverbial sore thumb)
 

sharpley

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The video below is quite interesting. Metropolitan Railway cab ride in 1910... Baker St - Uxbridge, which is electrified, then the junction north of Harrow On The Hill to Aylesbury (not electrified). Wembley Park to Uxbridge is pretty much all fields. Original footage from the BFI but the YouTube uploader has added a suitable soundtrack.
 

edwin_m

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But for the green belt new housing might have made the extension from Stanmore to St. Albans viable. Its my understanding that the Metropolitan Railway was contemplating this and it explains why Stanmore station was built in a way that would have made an extension very easy.

Maybe the LMS Stanmore branch would have been extended further north too (and electrified)!

Possibly the Met's plan to extend from the present-day Watford station to Watford Central station would have come to pass. As it is, the site of the planned new station was already in railway ownership and might still be owned by TfL 'today' (I am unsure - no doubt someone else will know!)
I've never heard of the Stanmore extension plan - do you have any more info? I've often wondered if the station was designed to be the portal of a future tunnel towards Watford, with an underground station in the actual Bushey Heath, not the Northern Line "Bushey Heath" station which was somewhere else entirely.

The Edgware to Bushey Heath section was also a partial resurrection of an older plan to extend from Edgware to Watford, and I believe the Bushey Heath terminus was also to be built to allow further extension.

I'm not sure the absence of the Green Belt would have made any difference to the extension to Watford from the Moor Park line. Most of it isn't Green Belt and the parts that are are a park and a golf course. It would have neede big development around and beyond Rickmansworth to create enough commuter traffic into Watford.

All this would have given Watford no less than four Underground links - how many does it really need? I think suburban rail would have come into its own earlier, rather than expecting people to travel all that distance with frequent stops on the Tube (though the Met would probably have offered fast trains).
 

AM9

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For anyone interested, this map shows the current Green Belts in England. The London one covers large areas of some boroughs e.g. Bromley and Hillingdon, and it extends past Luton, Stevenage and Southend.

Does anyone know why Southampton and Portsmouth didn't get one - they are two of the densest districts in the UK?

https://troyplanning.com/project/green-belt-map/
Portsmouth (as a city) is bounded by Portsdown Hill to the north. Much of this is still green and some of it is managed by the Royal Navy. North of that is towns developed along the A3 (old route) - Purbrook, Waterlooville, Cowplain & Horndean. Beyond that the South Downs are protected by a series of country parks running east-west. Due east of Portsmouth, the low density Hayling Island and all the area surrounding Chichester Harbour is AONB. West of Portsea Island, the Gosport peninsular has been developed piecemeal all the way up to the eastern suburbs of Southampton. Originally it was slated to build a new conurbation called Solent City midway between Portsmouth and Southampton where mainly between the rivers Hamble and Meon there existed some ribbon developed roads in an area known as Locks Heath. Instead, after years of wrangling and delays (70's and 80's) the councils just stood back and the developers infilled until the area became an unplanned mess of housing. More recently, the building has spread up the hamble valley north of the M27 to include Whitely and Burridge. West of Southampton, the New Forest National Park provides a green barrier.
South Hampshire looks a bit of a planning disaster but it has always been impacted by the many intrusions of the coastal waters.
 
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