Delay Repay during strikes

[flitwickbeds]

SWR drivers are on strike today and their website and Twitter feeds are suggesting Delay Repay is only payable against the amended timetable.

Is this standard practice? I know during planned engineering works this is the case, but what about during strike action?

 

[Tom B]

It's been the case when an emergency timetable has been introduced for, say, reasons of bad weather.

LUL don't even refund for strike days, claiming that it is outwith their control...!

 

[Saperstein]

If you bought your ticket before the industrial action was announced then surely you should be covered against the normal timetable.

 

[flitwickbeds]

If you bought your ticket before the industrial action was announced then surely you should be covered against the normal timetable.

Exactly... which would include all season ticket holders!

 

[FGW_DID]

Please humour me?

If the train you are on is advertised (on the temporary / emergency timetable) to start at 10.15 and arrive at 11.00.

The train, with you on it, leaves at 10.15 and arrives right time at 11.00, just how exactly have you been delayed?

 

[flitwickbeds]

Please humour me?

If the train you are on is advertised (on the temporary / emergency timetable) to start at 10.15 and arrive at 11.00.

The train, with you on it, leaves at 10.15 and arrives right time at 11.00, just how exactly have you been delayed?

You are not, of course.

The issue is that if when you bought your ticket there were advertised trains at 0930, 0945, 1000 and 1015 - arriving at 1015, 1030, 1045, and 1100 - but under the emergency/strike timetable there are only trains at 0915 and 1015 (arriving at 1000 and 1100) then you ARE delayed.

 

[adamello]

You are not, of course.

The issue is that if when you bought your ticket there were advertised trains at 0930, 0945, 1000 and 1015 - arriving at 1015, 1030, 1045, and 1100 - but under the emergency/strike timetable there are only trains at 0915 and 1015 (arriving at 1000 and 1100) then you ARE delayed.

Unless you bought an advance ticket (which will have new conditions anyway) you haven't booked to travel at 0930...etc you have just booked travel A-B

 

[Starmill]

Instead of Delay Repay, perhaps the OP could try to write to the TOC to recover a portion of the daily cost of their ticket for each day the service they paid for wasn't delivered? For example, if SWR offered half of the normal number of daily train services, perhaps a request for a 50% refund of the daily rate of the season for every day of the strike is fitting?

I'm sure they would view such claims sympathetically, given they have decided to withdraw most or even all services on some routes. If they refuse to pay, there are options for the OP to take their claim further.

It will be a bit of work though, for not much money. How much does your season ticket cost? What is an appropriate daily rate? How many strike days are you being affected by?

Unless you bought an advance ticket (which will have new conditions anyway) you haven't booked to travel at 0930...etc you have just booked travel A-B

I'm not sure that position is exactly supported by the terms of the contract!

I agree that with a season ticket, specifically, there is a grey area.

 

[EastCoastway]

Delay Repay against the amended timetable, same as if there was engineering work.
Season ticket holders will get compensation if they write to SWR.

 

[yorkie]

SWR drivers are on strike today and their website and Twitter feeds are suggesting Delay Repay is only payable against the amended timetable.

It's payable against whatever timetable was in place when you bought your ticket.

So if you buy your ticket today, then today's timetable forms the contractual arrival time.

But if you bought it before the timetable was amended, the timetable at that time is what applies. If you bought the ticket in conjunction with an itinerary, your itinerary can be used as evidence of the contract against which Delay Repay should be measured.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ts-disagreement-with-toc.184240/#post-4056301

If you bought your ticket before the industrial action was announced then surely you should be covered against the normal timetable.

Yes that's right.

 

[EastCoastway]

But if you bought it before the timetable was amended, the timetable at that time is what applies. If you bought the ticket in conjunction with an itinerary, your itinerary can be used as evidence of the contract against which Delay Repay should be measured.

No it won't because it won't technically be possible for starters.

 

[221129]

No it won't because it won't technically be possible for starters.

Yes it can! It's also the law.

 

[sheff1]

Unless you bought an advance ticket (which will have new conditions anyway) you haven't booked to travel at 0930...etc you have just booked travel A-B

Someone has a ticket from A to B dated for travel next Monday. They also have an itinerary, issued at the same time as the ticket, which shows they have a seat reservation on the 0930 train from A to B on Monday. The ticket is not an Advance.

Please explain how they have not booked to travel at 0930 next Monday.

 

[sheff1]

No it won't because it won't technically be possible for starters.

You say you work for SWR. Can the above be taken as an official statement from SWR that they have no intention of complying with legislation ?

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes it can! It's also the law.

Is it?

There is absolutely a right to cancel the journey and receive a refund - but where does the law say the customer can take the journey AND have a refund in this case?

 

[EastCoastway]

You say you work for SWR. Can the above be taken as an official statement from SWR that they have no intention of complying with legislation ?

No i'm saying that claims will in all probability be made against the revised timetable. I would personally appeal any decision...

 

[Silverdale]

If you bought the ticket in conjunction with an itinerary, your itinerary can be used as evidence of the contract against which Delay Repay should be measured.

I think it needs to be clarified which contract is being referred to here.

There is a retail contract between the seller and buyer of a National Rail ticket. Whatever itinerary is offered, it would be relevant to that contract.

There is also a contract of carriage, between the holder of the ticket, and the train companies on whose services the ticket is valid. These may be different parties to those of the retail contract. Whether they are or not, it is not at all clear to me that any itinerary offered by a retailer at the time of purchase has any bearing on the terms of the contract of carriage, other than to be adduced as evidence of what the customer intended, at the time.

 

[FGW_DID]

You are not, of course.

The issue is that if when you bought your ticket there were advertised trains at 0930, 0945, 1000 and 1015 - arriving at 1015, 1030, 1045, and 1100 - but under the emergency/strike timetable there are only trains at 0915 and 1015 (arriving at 1000 and 1100) then you ARE delayed.

That is ridiculous!

 

[maxbarnish]

This situation is quite a mess. I will appeal after submitting delay if I am delayed vs my original itinerary, but I may not be delayed depending if I end up having to leave earlier to get there in decent time. I have an interesting reply from SWR today on the Twitter, which is making me somewhat more positive.... I highlighted that the 16.31 bus from Cranbrook may miss the connection into the train from Honiton - it's an 8 min connection. And without boring non-locals with the details of the roads near Exeter, I'd be amazed if the bus gets from Exeter to Cranbrook on time at that time of day on the timetable they've given. SWR did not respond to my suggestion of stopping the train additionally at Cranbrook or holding it at Honiton so presumably not going to do those. And they didn't reply to the point re original itinerary. But - given the next train from Honiton is 2 hours later- they said, and I hope they will honour this in reality, that if the connection is missed at Honiton, I should use the station help point - I never know which button so I go for information...and they will arrange alternative onward transport, and further using GWR services. I am not sure what route that would mean, but from Honiton it would surely be a taxi to Taunton or maybe back to Exeter, but then I'd have to get tube across London hope that would be included in the ad hoc diversion... Hoping doesn't come to this, but seems a little better than what I feared. But hoping the bus does connect properly at Honiton but the bus time Exeter St David to Cranbrook calling at 2 stations is faster than I could do directly in my car at that time of day...

 

[maniacmartin]

I think it needs to be clarified which contract is being referred to here.

There is a retail contract between the seller and buyer of a National Rail ticket. Whatever itinerary is offered, it would be relevant to that contract.

The NRCoT is the retail contract. It even says near the start that the contract is between the passenger and the operators whose service it is valid on, and that the seller is merely acting as an agent for those operators.

 

[yorkie]

I think it needs to be clarified which contract is being referred to here.

There is a retail contract between the seller and buyer of a National Rail ticket. Whatever itinerary is offered, it would be relevant to that contract.

There is also a contract of carriage, between the holder of the ticket, and the train companies on whose services the ticket is valid. These may be different parties to those of the retail contract. Whether they are or not, it is not at all clear to me that any itinerary offered by a retailer at the time of purchase has any bearing on the terms of the contract of carriage, other than to be adduced as evidence of what the customer intended, at the time.

The above post is incorrect; see reply by @maniacmartin above.

 

[flitwickbeds]

That is ridiculous!

Is it? Why?
You're talking to someone who, for 8 weeks or so, endured Thameslink cancelling trains willy-nilly overnight so you'd never know until you woke up which trains might be available to get you to work, during the May 2018 timetable change fiasco.
I'm also the same person who has faced a 50% cut in services for a year at weekends with zero warning - not because of engineering works, just because Thameslink decided to only run 2tph all day instead of the 4tph they've run for at least the last 12 years, without fail (except engineering works) - and which was part of a promise for the timetable change in both May and December, but which didn't materialise until May this year.

What makes you think a strike is any different? Indeed, depending on the level of picket line support, it could easily be worse.

 

[yorkie]

That is ridiculous!

No it isn't; if anything is ridiculous it's the claim that you aren't delayed in that circumstance.

No it won't because it won't technically be possible for starters.

Of course it's technically possible. It used to be difficult to get hold of the information, but a forum member (who runs a retailing website) made a website that allows anyone to see changes to the published timetable.

Yes it can! It's also the law.

Agreed

 

[james-martin]

Evening all,

Not quite a delay-repay query but where do I stand with SVR/FSR ticket types and getting a full refund with NO admin fee? The situation is that myself and elderly parents booked to travel from Andover to St Ives. Now that a coach is involved and changing 4 items rather than twice and with a lower probability of assistance being available at the additional change locations I feel this is too much for my parents. The strike is quite reasonable justification for a full refund. Unfortunately the Retailer (GWR) are being very non-committal. SWR would have paid out in full.

Precise detail follows: Outbound 22nd June
3 tickets held for ADV-EXD Off-Peak Return
3 ticket held for EXD-SIV First Class Off-peak return.

I was only going to refund the first portion but where do I stand with the other portion (all under one booking reference)? Being that I've been messed around before by GWR replies before I'd prefer all the money back to start again now as I've run out of goodwill for them... But whether all refunded with NO admin fee is required and cast iron from NRCoT or not I'm unsure? Help gratefully received.

Any info received will be used for my refund complaint letter and returning tickets unless it seems wiser to hold off and ensure they promise no admin fee before trusting them with the tickets?

Many thanks,

James.

 

[yorkie]

Evening all,

Not quite a delay-repay query but where do I stand with SVR/FSR ticket types and getting a full refund with NO admin fee? The situation is that myself and elderly parents booked to travel from Andover to St Ives. Now that a coach is involved and changing 4 items rather than twice and with a lower probability of assistance being available at the additional change locations I feel this is too much for my parents. The strike is quite reasonable justification for a full refund. Unfortunately the Retailer (GWR) are being very non-committal. SWR would have paid out in full.

Precise detail follows: Outbound 22nd June
3 tickets held for ADV-EXD Off-Peak Return
3 ticket held for EXD-SIV First Class Off-peak return.

I was only going to refund the first portion but where do I stand with the other portion (all under one booking reference)? Being that I've been messed around before by GWR replies before I'd prefer all the money back to start again now as I've run out of goodwill for them... But whether all refunded with NO admin fee is required and cast iron from NRCoT or not I'm unsure? Help gratefully received.

Any info received will be used for my refund complaint letter and returning tickets unless it seems wiser to hold off and ensure they promise no admin fee before trusting them with the tickets?

Many thanks,

James.

If any of the trains in your itinerary are cancelled, and you choose not to travel, you are entitled to a 100% refund (with no admin fee).

Go back to the retailer one more time; if they continue to refuse your next step is the https://www.railombudsman.org/.

If you booked with a credit card, then a chargeback is an option, but this can be time consuming so I'd exhaust other avenues first.

You may wish to book future journeys with an alternative retailer if GWR continue to refuse to be helpful.

 

[james-martin]

Thanks Yorkie,

I guess the tricky point is that approximately the same departure time is offered, but then that service is part-cancelled causing an hour wait at Salisbury. We could leave an hour earlier and *might* connect with our reserved seats at EXD but I don't fancy chancing that and predicting a busy holiday Saturday train to Cornwall with people who cannot stand. I guess it depends on whether part-cancelled counts?

 

[Silverdale]

The NRCoT is the retail contract. It even says near the start that the contract is between the passenger and the operators whose service it is valid on, and that the seller is merely acting as an agent for those operators.

Surely NRCoT are the terms and conditions, not the contract?

But you are right, NRCoT does say that the contract to which it refers is between the passenger and the train companies. The retailer, if not one of those companies, is not a party to it.

If the retailer is not a party to the contract to which NRCoT refers, in what sense is it a retail contract?

And as for the contract of carriage, NRCoT specifically states that the (Licensed) retailer cannot waive or change the conditions in NRCoT, which would be the case if the itinerary offered by the retailer was binding on the train companies to carry their (the retailer's) customer by those services.

 

[Starmill]

Surely NRCoT are the terms and conditions, not the contract?

What?

But you are right, NRCoT does say that the contract to which it refers is between the passenger and the train companies. The retailer, if not one of those companies, is not a party to it.

Indeed, so what was your point?

If the retailer is not a party to the contract to which NRCoT refers, in what sense is it a retail contract?

You used the term 'retail contract' - I've never heard this before. What does it mean?

And as for the contract of carriage, NRCoT specifically states that the (Licensed) retailer cannot waive or change the conditions in NRCoT.

Why might they need to?

Are your posts composed with any aim other than to ask vexatious questions?

 

[Starmill]

There is absolutely a right to cancel the journey and receive a refund - but where does the law say the customer can take the journey AND have a refund in this case?

I don't get it. If someone goes out and buys a ticket for a particular journey, they can never claim a refund and use the ticket. Surely most people know that though?

 

[Silverdale]

You used the term 'retail contract' - I've never heard this before. What does it mean?

Seriously?