LNER/TP Ticket Issue

[Iskra]

Hi all,

I bought a TP Airport Advance Ticket from LNER using their digital app for the 1653 Manchester Airport-Sheffield service. The booking confirmation itinerary came through correct for the 1653. However, when I got to Manchester Airport Station in good time for the 1653 as planned, I loaded up my ticket on my phone and for some reason it said only valid on the 1553 service, this contradicts my booking confirmation/itinerary. The 1553 had obviously long gone by this point, and I never planned to catch that train as if left before my flight arrived. I was quite abruptly told that I had to go buy a new ticket, which I did, but then I had to pay the walk-up fare (with railcard discount), meaning a journey that was going to cost me £9.85 ended up costing me just over £28. When I got on the 1653, my advance ticket seat reservation was there in the correct seat on the correct train that I had booked. I have screenshots/emails to confirm all of this.

The problem I have here is that it involves 2 TOC's and I don't want them just blaming each other. How do I go about resolving this and who is responsible for refunding me (if I am due a refund)?

LNER essentially issued me a ticket that was useless. The booking confirmation was correct though, hence why I didn't spot it until the start of my journey.
TP then charged me again for the same journey at walk-up rates, even though I had a valid itinerary and confirmation, but a corrupted ticket through no fault of my own. Why should I pay again (and more) for a journey I've already paid for?

There were some issues regarding TP's complete lack of customer service but that's not relevant here.

I hope this is clear, if you need any further clarification please ask. All assistance appreciated.

 

[Starmill]

You are due a refund from whomever sold you the new ticket. Was it the ticket office at Manchester Airport? If so, this is TransPennine Express.

 

[Starmill]

There were some issues regarding TP's complete lack of customer service but that's not relevant here.

Indeed not. However, you can also raise this as a complaint separately with them, about their policy or their actions on the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you still have the booking confirmation and the ticket showing different times but the same ToD reference?

If so, I would take it up with the retailer. If not, it's your word against theirs and you're likely stuck.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are due a refund from whomever sold you the new ticket. Was it the ticket office at Manchester Airport? If so, this is TransPennine Express.

Why's it their responsibility that a retailer seemingly inserted an incorrect ticket into the ToD system?

 

[yorkie]

Hi all,

I bought a TP Airport Advance Ticket from LNER using their digital app for the 1653 Manchester Airport-Sheffield service. The booking confirmation itinerary came through correct for the 1653. However, when I got to Manchester Airport Station in good time for the 1653 as planned, I loaded up my ticket on my phone and for some reason it said only valid on the 1553 service, this contradicts my booking confirmation/itinerary. The 1553 had obviously long gone by this point, and I never planned to catch that train as if left before my flight arrived. I was quite abruptly told that I had to go buy a new ticket, which I did, but then I had to pay the walk-up fare (with railcard discount), meaning a journey that was going to cost me £9.85 ended up costing me just over £28. When I got on the 1653, my advance ticket seat reservation was there in the correct seat on the correct train that I had booked. I have screenshots/emails to confirm all of this.

Did you show the booking confirmation to the member of staff who charged you? If so, that's a breach of contract law which needs to be taken up with the relevant train company.

The problem I have here is that it involves 2 TOC's and I don't want them just blaming each other. How do I go about resolving this and who is responsible for refunding me (if I am due a refund)?

The company that charged you for the replacement ticket needs to understand that they should be honouring the contract. If there is an issuing error, they may withdraw the original ticket and issue a free of charge replacement, or they can endorse the original ticket. They cannot charge the customer.

LNER essentially issued me a ticket that was useless. The booking confirmation was correct though, hence why I didn't spot it until the start of my journey.
TP then charged me again for the same journey at walk-up rates, even though I had a valid itinerary and confirmation, but a corrupted ticket through no fault of my own. Why should I pay again (and more) for a journey I've already paid for?

Again it's yet another breach of contract law. You already paid and cannot be compelled to pay again.

There were some issues regarding TP's complete lack of customer service but that's not relevant here.

I hope this is clear, if you need any further clarification please ask. All assistance appreciated.

Both companies need to be contacted regarding this matter.

 

[yorkie]

Why's it their responsibility that a retailer seemingly inserted an incorrect ticket into the ToD system?

Because it's the law.

The correct action for any member of staff who comes across an issuing error is to complete a Ticket Irregularity Report (TIR); here is a relevant extract from the iKB:

If a ticket is retained for enquiry, in the course of a journey, issue an Excess Fare ticket, without charge, for the complete journey, showing details of the original ticket and endorsed 'Original ticket held for enquiry'. Include the issuing of this ticket in your report.

 

[Starmill]

Why's it their responsibility that a retailer seemingly inserted an incorrect ticket into the ToD system?

Because, in charging for a service which has already been paid for, it is they who have made the mistake.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm a little intrigued as to how this even happened - it shouldn't be possible at all. To the OP - can you post the itinerary and the tickets with the appropriate personal details redacted?

 

[Iskra]

You are due a refund from whomever sold you the new ticket. Was it the ticket office at Manchester Airport? If so, this is TransPennine Express.

Thank you for clarifying. Yes it was that ticket office.

Do you still have the booking confirmation and the ticket showing different times but the same ToD reference?

If so, I would take it up with the retailer. If not, it's your word against theirs and you're likely stuck.

Yes, I have the original itinerary email with the correct time and a screenshot of the digital ticket with the wrong time on it, both have the same booking reference so shows that there is no foul play from me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really, really stupid question.

Is your phone on the correct timezone? There is no reason the app (if it is an M-ticket) should show the time differently if it is, but if they didn't think of that that might explain it.

 

[yorkie]

I'm a little intrigued as to how this even happened - it shouldn't be possible at all. To the OP - can you post the itinerary and the tickets with the appropriate personal details redacted?

Yes it should not be possible but mistakes do happen.

Really, really stupid question.

Is your phone on the correct timezone? There is no reason the app (if it is an M-ticket) should show the time differently if it is, but if they didn't think of that that might explain it.

If it was, it would be a matter for the retailer/app developer, but it's not relevant to the customer in terms of getting their money back.

 

[Iskra]

Did you show the booking confirmation to the member of staff who charged you? If so, that's a breach of contract law which needs to be taken up with the relevant train company.

The company that charged you for the replacement ticket needs to understand that they should be honouring the contract. If there is an issuing error, they may withdraw the original ticket and issue a free of charge replacement, or they can endorse the original ticket. They cannot charge the customer.

Again it's yet another breach of contract law. You already paid and cannot be compelled to pay again.

Both companies need to be contacted regarding this matter.

No, he didn't ask to see my train ticket. He wanted my flight details which he typed into a computer, then told me that I couldn't use my Airport Advance on the 1653 because my flight was booked to arrive after 1553 which was the train my ticket was for. I think he was just on auto pilot and didn't really listen and just went into 'tourist with improperly booked airport advance' mode. He was resolute that I needed to buy a new ticket. For my part, I probably didn't explain it that well as I've been up since 0430, driven across the width of Italy on stupid mountain roads, have done 2 flights today and felt pressured because I was holding up a big queue behind me, but the impression I got was it wasn't worth arguing as he wasn't having any of it.

Thanks for your help.

 

[yorkie]

No, he didn't ask to see my train ticket. He wanted my flight details which he typed into a computer, then told me that I couldn't use my Airport Advance on the 1653 because my flight was booked to arrive after 1553 which was the train my ticket was for. I think he was just on auto pilot and didn't really listen and just went into 'tourist with improperly booked airport advance' mode. He was resolute that I needed to buy a new ticket. For my part, I probably didn't explain it that well as I've been up since 0430, driven across the width of Italy on stupid mountain roads, have done 2 flights today and felt pressured because I was holding up a big queue behind me, but the impression I got was it wasn't worth arguing as he wasn't having any of it.

Thanks for your help.

Did you show the booking confirmation and explain that you had a contract for the 1653?

If it was me, I'd have spoken to the Guard on the train, but it's too late for that now. Something to bear in mind for future reference though.

 

[Iskra]

I'm a little intrigued as to how this even happened - it shouldn't be possible at all. To the OP - can you post the itinerary and the tickets with the appropriate personal details redacted?

I can do, give me a few minutes.

Really, really stupid question.

Is your phone on the correct timezone? There is no reason the app (if it is an M-ticket) should show the time differently if it is, but if they didn't think of that that might explain it.

I do think it is something to do with timezones. I booked the ticket while in Italy, which has a time difference of one hour. But, I definitely booked the right train and the email confirmation confirmed this.

 

[Iskra]

Did you show the booking confirmation and explain that you had a contract for the 1653?

If it was me, I'd have spoken to the Guard on the train, but it's too late for that now. Something to bear in mind for future reference though.

I did speak to the guard once I was on the train and she was fairly helpful, but I had to buy a ticket to get through the barriers!

 

[yorkie]

I can do, give me a few minutes.

I do think it is something to do with timezones. I booked the ticket while in Italy, which has a time difference of one hour. But, I definitely booked the right train and the email confirmation confirmed this.

That will be really useful information for the app developers to know; clearly it should be possible to purchase a ticket while in a different timezone and there is no way a customer should be penalised for a retailing issue.

I did speak to the guard once I was on the train and she was fairly helpful, but I had to buy a ticket to get through the barriers!

Ah, the original ticket was rejected by the barrier? Did you also show the itinerary to gateline staff?

 

[Iskra]

See attachments below:

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bizarre. I wonder if unloading (releasing from the device) and reloading it while in the UK would work? (Don't try it, you might lose your evidence)

 

[Iskra]

That will be really useful information for the app developers to know; clearly it should be possible to purchase a ticket while in a different timezone and there is no way a customer should be penalised for a retailing issue.

Ah, the original ticket was rejected by the barrier? Did you also show the itinerary to gateline staff?

I never got to scan my original ticket on the barrier, I first went and explained it to the barrier person and showed them the discrepancy, who sent me to the ticket office.

 

[yorkie]

I never got to scan my original ticket on the barrier, I first went and explained it to the barrier person and showed them the discrepancy, who sent me to the ticket office.

So the ticket might have worked the barrier?

In any case, you still shouldn't have been charged, if you showed the booking confirmation to the ticket clerk and explained that you did book the 1653.

 

[Iskra]

So the ticket might have worked the barrier?

In any case, you still shouldn't have been charged, if you showed the booking confirmation to the ticket clerk and explained that you did book the 1653.

I don't know enough about ticket barriers to say that, but I decided to take the honest approach and discuss it with the barrier person before trying to go through. The barrier person was very busy assisting people while trying to help me at the same time.

Personally, I just want my £18 back!

 

[najaB]

Bizarre. I wonder if unloading (releasing from the device) and reloading it while in the UK would work?

I think the timezone issue may be a red herring since, as far as I know, Advance tickets are issued against a train service code, rather than against the time shown in the timetable.

 

[yorkie]

I think the timezone issue may be a red herring since, as far as I know, Advance tickets are issued against a train service code, rather than against the time shown in the timetable.

I think it's not a red herring actually.

 

[najaB]

I think it's not a red herring actually.

That only makes sense if it's a display issue - it doesn't make any sense that the ticket would be issued against a different service code.

If it is a display issue that could easily be tested by changing the time on the device.

 

[methethpropbut]

subtle but possibly important point: the 15:53 reaches SHF at 17:09 not 17:10, so it doesn't seem like it is a timezone issue - if it was the arrival time would have read 18:09 instead of 18:10

 

[Egg Centric]

That only makes sense if it's a display issue - it doesn't make any sense that the ticket would be issued against a different service code.

If it is a display issue that could easily be tested by changing the time on the device.

As a techy type, here is a possible scenario:

The app OP uses to buy ticket will probably store dates / times internally in a normalized format (which amongst other things will store the time in UTC) and use a common library for outputting / extracting the date / time. These libraries are usually locale aware and their default behaviour would be to convert the time to the current timezone, a subtle issue which requires a decent tester to spot.

As it's a mobile app there's a good chance that it's a thin wrapper of a web page, and this is certainly the default behaviour of the most common JavaScript date library (moment.js).

 

[FQTV]

I think it's not a red herring actually.

I’m also minded to think that the time zone is quite likely to have been the root cause of the issue.

Associated problems with other similar smartphone functions do exist, such as iOS push notifications through Apps and Apple Wallet, which can be a little unnerving on occasion.

For example:

Passenger in UK is travelling to Spain. Passenger has a connecting (empirically) Ryanair flight from Spain. iOS boarding pass push notification is received regarding the ex Spain flight, just before the passenger takes off in the UK.

The push notification will show the relevant times for the ex Spain flight, but they will be the UK local times as iOS reconciles this based on current location, not the actual Spanish local times. It will therefore show boarding (say) at 21:30, when the actual boarding time will be 22:30 in Spain.

I can therefore see that it’s at least possible that a lag in the OP’s device, or network, or both, in reconciling themselves with the new location’s local time, and the time showing on the ‘ticket’ not being (effectively) hard printed, but rather a function of a calculation between a GMT or other datum time, plus or minus a local variation, could cause an incorrect time to display.

In the case of coming from Italy, the expectation might be that the time showing on the OP’s ticket would be plus an hour, but if it is an error of reconciliation then it’s entirely plausible that error could swing the other way.

The note above pointing out arrival times lends further credence to this, I think.

Red herrings are irrelevant thus far.

 

[Iskra]

Just to clarify, my phone was on BST at the time of trying to use the ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just to clarify, my phone was on BST at the time of trying to use the ticket.

Including when it was purchased and downloaded?