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London Buses Discussion

edwin_m

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Interesting article on why services bunch - you don't need to understand the maths to get the general gist:
https://pedestrianobservations.com/2018/08/18/the-dynamics-of-bus-bunching/
The upshot of the mathematical model in this post is that several already-understood reforms can seriously reduce bus bunching: speeding up boarding through prepayment and all-door boarding, using bigger buses with many doors on the busiest routes, implementing signal priority and enforcing bus lanes better, and improving dispatching to tell bus drivers to maintain even headways leaving each terminus.
 
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NorthKent1989

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Was going to start a separate thread on what I'm.about to say, but may as well put on here:

There are going to propose cut backs to routes 53, 171 & 172, this seems ridiculous especially where the 53 is concerned, its a long standing link between Plumstead, Woolwich, Charlton, Blackheath, Greenwich Park, Deptford, New X and the West End, they want go cut it back to County Hall or their preferred option of Elephant & Castle.
 

Hophead

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TfL have published an updated summary of proposed changes in relation to Crossrail opening (plus a few more, I suspect) - it's lengthy, so I won't summarise it here. One thing really did stick out, though:

We will be introducing larger 60 seat single deck buses on route E10, but will not be altering the route frequency.

Any ideas what these might be? Surely there's nothing on the market that fits this description, especially given TfL's standards for seat spacing? It seems to me that you simply couldn't fit that many seats onto a single decker, unless it could, say, bend a little bit in the middle.
 

Busaholic

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Was going to start a separate thread on what I'm.about to say, but may as well put on here:

There are going to propose cut backs to routes 53, 171 & 172, this seems ridiculous especially where the 53 is concerned, its a long standing link between Plumstead, Woolwich, Charlton, Blackheath, Greenwich Park, Deptford, New X and the West End, they want go cut it back to County Hall or their preferred option of Elephant & Castle.
TfL are hoping people will transfer to the Bakerloo at Elephant or Waterloo to get to Trafalgar Square or Regent Street, as they probably won't be able to change onto one of the bus routes going further because of overcrowding. In any case, for longer distance passengers they'll be 'out of time' for the Hopper fare. Some of those passengers may just seek an alternative to the 53 in the shape of SouthEastern Rail, never to return, and a once great bus route gets ground into the dust.
 

duncanp

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Major changes to Central London bus routes are confirmed from November, details are at

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/roads/oxford-street/

Route 10 will be withdrawn, but we will amend Route 23 to run between Westbourne Park and Hammersmith. The amended route 23 will continue to run between Westbourne Park and Marble Arch, but will then follow the existing route 10 from Marble Arch to Hammersmith. We plan to implement these changes in November 2018.

We intend to withdraw routes 113 and 159 between Oxford Circus and Marble Arch at all times. Route 94 between Piccadilly Circus and North Row will be withdrawn during the day. These changes will be made in line with the phased opening of the Elizabeth line or in response to wider bus network changes. Night bus services on route 94 will continue to operate to Piccadilly Circus.

The changes to route 94 would require some minor changes to roads managed by Westminster City Council. We will discuss these changes with the Council shortly. The changes to route 94 would take place only once the necessary highway works have been completed.

Routes 7, 98, 139 and 390 will all continue to operate along Oxford Street.

The loss of the 10 and the diversion of the 23 from large swathes of Central London will have a big impact.

All this is in connection with the plan to pedestrianise Oxford Street (abandoned) and to coincide with the opening of the Elizabeth Line (delayed by nine months)

You couldn't make it up, really.:{

Of course the fact that TfL is strapped for cash because of the decision to freeze bus fares has got absolutely nothing to do with these changes, and anyone who suggests otherwise should have their head chopped off, although you would require at least one change of bus to get to the Tower of London from many areas.:D
 

Be3G

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It's a shame that TfL don't seem to realise some people (or at least, this person) sometimes choose bus travel over the tube in central London for factors that outweigh journey speed (e.g. comfort and door-to-door convenience). I don't much like shopping as it tends to wear me out, but if I needed/wanted to visit the shops on Oxford Street my usual route used to be a train in to Liverpool Street and then a direct bus that'd drop me off right outside the shops. Now that both direct bus routes have gone and the only other option is using the noisy and crowded tube I simply avoid going to Oxford Circus and visit other more convenient shopping centres instead.
 

duncanp

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It will also have a proportionately large impact on disabled passengers, particularly those in wheelchairs for whom buses are 100% accessible, but the tube far less so.

The 10 provides a useful link from Kings Cross to may areas of Central London, and as it starts there the wheelchair space is more likely to be free.

Similarly for the 23 from Paddington.

I don't go to Oxford Street anymore - I visit Westfield Stratford City instead (from Walthamstow)

Talking of Walthamstow, the 48 is due to be withdrawn completely soon, allegedly to relieve congestion on London Bridge. What a load of rubbish - if that was the objective, they could cut back the 48 to Liverpool Street.

In compensation for the withdrawal of the 48, the 55 will be extended from Leyton to Walthamstow. So the people of Walthamstow will have a direct bus to Oxford Circus, which is useful as I can't think how else you would do that journey.:lol:

I am sure the people who live along Lea Bridge Road, and in Clapton and Hackney, will be very pleased that congestion on London Bridge is less and won't mind one little bit about fewer buses where they live, and the consequent increase in overcrowding.
 

Statto

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What if anything is going to replace the 10 between Marble Arch-Russell Square-Kings Cross, as the 10 goes via Russell Square the only route linking Oxford Street & Russell Square & The British Museum, the 10 diversion via Russell Square was ironically, a replacement for the 7 over the Marble Arch-Russell Square section, when the 7 was cut to Oxford Circus.

The 10 could have been kept, go down Piccadilly to Piccadilly Circus then Shaftesbury Avenue to Tottenham Court Road, & as normal instead.

The main problem with Oxford Street is the traffic lights every 50 yards, coupled that it feels like they're on red for an age
 

telstarbox

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TfL have launched a demand-responsive service in Sutton:

TfL jumped on the digital DRT bandwagon today launching its own version of Arriva Click and Oxford Pick Me Up. This latest app-based Demand Responsive Transport has landed in upmarket car dominated Sutton and Carshalton using six minibuses out of a fleet of eight between 06:30 and 21:30, seven days a week, operated by GoAhead London from its Sutton bus garage.

https://busandtrainuser.com/2019/05/28/free-taxis-for-the-over-sixties-in-sutton/
 

AlbertBeale

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Re the scrapping of the 10, apparently the route 14 will be cut between Tottenham Court Road and Warren Street, and diverted to Russell Square instead. So there will be a route to the BM, but it won't replace the through connection to Kings Cross we've lost with the demise of the 10. (I live a few yards from what was the 10 route; its withdrawal has been a great loss for many of us living in Bloomsbury - exacerbated by the removal of buses from Gower Street, meaning many people around here who can't walk far are uncomfortably further from any bus stop.)
This losing of the Kings Cross link is made worse by the cutting of the 59 between Euston and Kings Cross as well.
And this also leaves Waterloo and Kings Cross / St Pancras as the only pair of such significant transport hubs around central London with neither a direct bus nor a direct tube link. I personally feel hard done by since besides the 10 and the 59, two other routes which I commonly use(d) have just been shortened - the 3 and the 341.
And while I'm moaning, what about the promise from years back to run one of the routes terminating at Kings Cross up onto the new railway lands development, which is still without any bus access?
 

bb21

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The 59 was originally extended from Euston to King's Cross for the sole purpose of providing a direct link between Waterloo and King's Cross. The link still doesn't exist and now the slap is firmly on the previous boss's face.

Reading the permanent changes booklet for April to June gives a really depressing picture. Lots of curtailments and frequency reductions, with very little enhancements. Demand doesn't disappear overnight, and nothing screams more about TfL's desperation than this round of cuts.

Flicking to the final page, the slogan "every journey matters" couldn't be more ironic.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-permanent-bus-changes.pdf

upload_2019-6-17_3-44-59.png

Interestingly in one of the leaflets about changes in the Waterloo area (and indeed in all other leaflets too), TfL claim they will refund fares where people had to pay extra as a result of these changes. That sounds like a first to me so not sure what scope it has and for how long. It doesn't appear well published otherwise so I wonder what the take-up rate is going to be like.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/leaflet-2-waterloo.pdf
 

Antman

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Re the scrapping of the 10, apparently the route 14 will be cut between Tottenham Court Road and Warren Street, and diverted to Russell Square instead. So there will be a route to the BM, but it won't replace the through connection to Kings Cross we've lost with the demise of the 10. (I live a few yards from what was the 10 route; its withdrawal has been a great loss for many of us living in Bloomsbury - exacerbated by the removal of buses from Gower Street, meaning many people around here who can't walk far are uncomfortably further from any bus stop.)
This losing of the Kings Cross link is made worse by the cutting of the 59 between Euston and Kings Cross as well.
And this also leaves Waterloo and Kings Cross / St Pancras as the only pair of such significant transport hubs around central London with neither a direct bus nor a direct tube link. I personally feel hard done by since besides the 10 and the 59, two other routes which I commonly use(d) have just been shortened - the 3 and the 341.
And while I'm moaning, what about the promise from years back to run one of the routes terminating at Kings Cross up onto the new railway lands development, which is still without any bus access?

The 14 does go to Russell Square now. Removing the 59 from Kings Cross is ridiculous but the rest of the changes are understandable in the current climate.
 

Busaholic

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The 59 was originally extended from Euston to King's Cross for the sole purpose of providing a direct link between Waterloo and King's Cross. The link still doesn't exist and now the slap is firmly on the previous boss's face.

Reading the permanent changes booklet for April to June gives a really depressing picture. Lots of curtailments and frequency reductions, with very little enhancements. Demand doesn't disappear overnight, and nothing screams more about TfL's desperation than this round of cuts.

Flicking to the final page, the slogan "every journey matters" couldn't be more ironic.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-permanent-bus-changes.pdf

View attachment 64556

Interestingly in one of the leaflets about changes in the Waterloo area (and indeed in all other leaflets too), TfL claim they will refund fares where people had to pay extra as a result of these changes. That sounds like a first to me so not sure what scope it has and for how long. It doesn't appear well published otherwise so I wonder what the take-up rate is going to be like.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/leaflet-2-waterloo.pdf
You're absolutely right - the creation of a new Kings Cross to Waterloo link was something that was insisted on by Peter Hendy when he headed London Buses. Given the lack of a direct Underground link, it could be considered an aberration that the link is now destroyed to 'save' a bus or two in the proclaimed 'reason' of reducing overbussing on the Euston Road. It should be added that the 59 was only the most recent of the routes providing this link: I used the then-new 239 to get to work that way when it replaced the northern section of the 196. Other routes over the years have included the 68, 188 and iirc a brief Red Arrow fling. Ken Livingstone's South London tram route would have embraced the two as well.
 

matt_world2004

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The 59 was originally extended from Euston to King's Cross for the sole purpose of providing a direct link between Waterloo and King's Cross. The link still doesn't exist and now the slap is firmly on the previous boss's face.

Reading the permanent changes booklet for April to June gives a really depressing picture. Lots of curtailments and frequency reductions, with very little enhancements. Demand doesn't disappear overnight, and nothing screams more about TfL's desperation than this round of cuts.

Flicking to the final page, the slogan "every journey matters" couldn't be more ironic.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-permanent-bus-changes.pdf

View attachment 64556

Interestingly in one of the leaflets about changes in the Waterloo area (and indeed in all other leaflets too), TfL claim they will refund fares where people had to pay extra as a result of these changes. That sounds like a first to me so not sure what scope it has and for how long. It doesn't appear well published otherwise so I wonder what the take-up rate is going to be like.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/leaflet-2-waterloo.pdf
I think they are probably just going to increase the fare hopper time for route combinations that go through waterloo /Kings Cross.
 

AlbertBeale

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I think they are probably just going to increase the fare hopper time for route combinations that go through waterloo /Kings Cross.

Maybe so - but it's not just the money when journeys are split, it's the speed and convenience of the journey. If you're heading from the Lambeth North area or from Waterloo, with a lot to carry to Kings Cross, and get the 59 to Euston to continue on from there, you find it's not the easiest of interchanges at Euston bus station.

And concerning the "reason" for some of the cuts being "overbussing" on Euston Road - well, there are now three fewer routes between Euston and Kings Cross / St P, namely the 10, 59 and 476.
 

Antman

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I think they are probably just going to increase the fare hopper time for route combinations that go through waterloo /Kings Cross.

There is no need to change hopper fare, the journey can be done comfortably within the existing time limit with a change of bus at Euston. It leaves no direct link between Waterloo and King's Cross/St Pancras by bus or tube. The savings could have been made by cutting the rather superfluous 476 back further.
 

radamfi

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It is not necessary for every station to have a direct connection with every other station, and Kings Cross to Waterloo benefits from the carefully planned cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus, so that is pretty much as good as direct anyway. Even now Kingsway is grossly overbussed. Excluding the X68 there are still 8 routes. Not many people are going to switch to using the car as a result of central London bus cuts. Whereas in outer London the car is still the main mode of transport so that is where resources should go.
 

Antman

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It is not necessary for every station to have a direct connection with every other station, and Kings Cross to Waterloo benefits from the carefully planned cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus, so that is pretty much as good as direct anyway. Even now Kingsway is grossly overbussed. Excluding the X68 there are still 8 routes. Not many people are going to switch to using the car as a result of central London bus cuts. Whereas in outer London the car is still the main mode of transport so that is where resources should go.

Well no it's not essential but it does seem ridiculous to remove the sole link between those stations just to make some rather meagre savings. Yes Kingsway is over bussed, certainly outside of peak hours, and so are many other sections of routes and that's where the cuts should be made. I'm not sure that the 476 has any real purpose at all other than perhaps at the northern end of the route.
 

philjo

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It is not necessary for every station to have a direct connection with every other station, and Kings Cross to Waterloo benefits from the carefully planned cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus, so that is pretty much as good as direct anyway. Even now Kingsway is grossly overbussed. Excluding the X68 there are still 8 routes. Not many people are going to switch to using the car as a result of central London bus cuts. Whereas in outer London the car is still the main mode of transport so that is where resources should go.
The only step-free line at Waterloo is the Jubilee line. The Underground route to Kings Cross using the cross-platform interchange at Oxford circus is not suitable for those who cannot manage the large gaps on the curved Bakerloo line platforms & long escalators at Waterloo. I personally would never contemplate using the Bakerloo line anymore at Waterloo due to the large gaps. The official step-free route is to use the Jubilee line and change at Green Park. However this involves a long walk to access the Victoria line lifts at Green Park. The 59 bus was far more convenient when taking luggage between Waterloo and Kings Cross. Last time I used Waterloo East to London Bridge & caught a Cambridge Thameslink service to avoid using the tube altogether. Though had an issue when the only lift to access the Thameslink platforms at London Bridge was out of service.
 

Busaholic

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It is not necessary for every station to have a direct connection with every other station, and Kings Cross to Waterloo benefits from the carefully planned cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus, so that is pretty much as good as direct anyway. Even now Kingsway is grossly overbussed. Excluding the X68 there are still 8 routes. Not many people are going to switch to using the car as a result of central London bus cuts. Whereas in outer London the car is still the main mode of transport so that is where resources should go.
Of course it is not necessary for every London NR terminal station to have a direct bus connection with each of the others, which I take as being your point. Waterloo hasn't had one with Paddington, for instance, within my memory, partly no doubt because many people coming from SW England wishing to travel to the West of England and Wales would opt to go via Reading, Bristol, Exeter and other more direct routes, whereas Waterloo to Kings Cross is a journey hundreds, maybe thousands, of longer distance rail passengers make every day and always had the direct connection until it was severed earlier this century, only to be restored at the behest of the top bods at TfL who were embarassed at the oversight. It is a relatively short distance that, in theory, like Victoria to Paddington should be almost as quickly achieved platform to platform by bus as by Underground, although I admit the authorities are making this as difficult as possible now with their infernal tinkering.
 

radamfi

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Of course it is not necessary for every London NR terminal station to have a direct bus connection with each of the others, which I take as being your point. Waterloo hasn't had one with Paddington, for instance, within my memory, partly no doubt because many people coming from SW England wishing to travel to the West of England and Wales would opt to go via Reading, Bristol, Exeter and other more direct routes, whereas Waterloo to Kings Cross is a journey hundreds, maybe thousands, of longer distance rail passengers make every day and always had the direct connection until it was severed earlier this century, only to be restored at the behest of the top bods at TfL who were embarassed at the oversight. It is a relatively short distance that, in theory, like Victoria to Paddington should be almost as quickly achieved platform to platform by bus as by Underground, although I admit the authorities are making this as difficult as possible now with their infernal tinkering.

As already explained, Waterloo to Kings Cross can be done easily by Tube, which is typically included in cross-London train fares, whereas using the bus would mean extra cost. For those on stopping trains into Waterloo, they also have the option of changing at Vauxhall which has a direct Victoria Line to Kings Cross. For those who need the bus for mobility reasons, they have same stop interchange with the 91 at numerous locations, including on Monday to Friday, at Holborn using the crazily frequent 521.

Places renowned for their public transport accept that changing is necessary because it is not possible to provide a direct service from everywhere to everywhere. Instead they ensure that changing is as easy as possible and there is no financial penalty for doing so. For example, Zurich is widely accepted in having the best public transport in the world for a city of its size but to get to the city centre from many places in the city requires at least one change, unthinkable in Britain. London has gone part way in ensuring that people aren't penalised financially for changing buses but there is still a severe penalty for changing between bus and Tube. The hopper fare has exacerbated that in encouraging even more people to save money by wasting time sitting on buses when they could have made the trip quicker by a combination of bus and Tube.

As London has 19,000 bus stops, there are 361 million possible origin and destination pairs. If you only choose your destination based on what direct routes are available, even in the best case of a location served by many routes you will only be able to reach maybe a few hundred possible bus stops. So if you want public transport to be used for a high proportion of journeys, changing vehicle en route has to be accepted.
 

Deerfold

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As already explained, Waterloo to Kings Cross can be done easily by Tube, which is typically included in cross-London train fares, whereas using the bus would mean extra cost. For those on stopping trains into Waterloo, they also have the option of changing at Vauxhall which has a direct Victoria Line to Kings Cross. For those who need the bus for mobility reasons, they have same stop interchange with the 91 at numerous locations, including on Monday to Friday, at Holborn using the crazily frequent 521.

It can be done relatively easily by tube. I would usually use the tube. However, on occasions when I have heavy luggage, I usually find it less tricky to traverse Central London by direct bus - getting to underground platforms can be tricky, as can boarding a train.

You've pointed out you've already explained how to do this connection by underground. Equally, others have already pointed out why not everyone finds this convenient.

The "crazily frequent" 521 runs every 11-12 minutes on Mondays to Fridays outside of peak hours.
 
Last edited:

90sWereBetter

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Wait, people on here are actually defending TFL's decision to curtail the 59? The mind boggles. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, the Stagecoach Trident/ALX400 fleet, which once numbered almost 1,000 examples, is down to penny figures. The loss of the 208 next month will almost bring the curtain down on the last stragglers with plenty of E400s being made spare. The only other Tridents left in London service are one or two ALX400s with Metroline at Cricklewood, which I heavily doubt will see the month out. Sad times indeed.

There's about 30 Volvo B7s left in London, the vast majority of these being with Arriva at Barking garage. These will last until October until the 128 is lost.
 

Ianno87

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I'm going to hazard a guess that TfL do have usage figures for the number of actual travellers on the 59 between Waterloo and King's Cross and how it probably pales in comparison to the number made by tube.

From TfL's perspective, how could they justify continuing to fund a lightly used extension to King's Cross (with multiple alternative routes and modes) whilst cutting outer area frequencies with fewer or no alternatives?
 

Antman

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Wait, people on here are actually defending TFL's decision to curtail the 59? The mind boggles. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, the Stagecoach Trident/QUOTE]
I'm going to hazard a guess that TfL do have usage figures for the number of actual travellers on the 59 between Waterloo and King's Cross and how it probably pales in comparison to the number made by tube.

From TfL's perspective, how could they justify continuing to fund a lightly used extension to King's Cross (with multiple alternative routes and modes) whilst cutting outer area frequencies with fewer or no alternatives?

I doubt anything as scientific as that was involved, I understand that they need to cut costs but cutting a useful link like this just save a couple of buses really is a poor way of going about it. I can't understand why the proposed cut on the 19 didn't happen, loads of spare capacity on the 22 and 38 between Holborn and Kings Road.
 

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