London Buses Discussion

[urpert]

I shall be watching the 227 changes with interest tomorrow. It’s exceptionally busy for a single deck route (due to the Shortlands railway bridge) and the current Citaros are often full and standing. I understand Metrobus are bringing Streetlites (which don’t seem to have the best reputation) but as I’m no longer a LOTS member I’m not sure of the exact specifications. I will say that the 7 year old Citaros are basically as good as new (partly due to the care Bromley garage takes over vehicle presentation) and I’ll be sorry to see them go.

 

[Busaholic]

The "crazily frequent" 521 runs every 11-12 minutes on Mondays to Fridays outside of peak hours.

''Crazily infrequent'' at the weekend - none whatsoever.

 

[Busaholic]

I doubt anything as scientific as that was involved, I understand that they need to cut costs but cutting a useful link like this just save a couple of buses really is a poor way of going about it. I can't understand why the proposed cut on the 19 didn't happen, loads of spare capacity on the 22 and 38 between Holborn and Kings Road.

As there's no touching out on London buses there can never be definitive answers as to actual journeys made, although assumptions can be made by analysing an individual's Oyster or bank card usage. Of course, if the only usage is on the 59, say, there's no evidence where the individual left the bus. Treat all TfL figures in 'consultations' with scepticism.

 

[matt_world2004]

As there's no touching out on London buses there can never be definitive answers as to actual journeys made, although assumptions can be made by analysing an individual's Oyster or bank card usage. Of course, if the only usage is on the 59, say, there's no evidence where the individual left the bus. Treat all TfL figures in 'consultations' with scepticism.

They have software called odx It assumes where you touch in on the return journey is where you got off on the outward journey. It will also link buses so for example if you changed bus. It will guess you got off based on where you touched in on the next bus

 

[Busaholic]

They have software called odx It assumes where you touch in on the return journey is where you got off on the outward journey. It will also link buses so for example if you changed bus. It will guess you got off based on where you touched in on the next bus

As you say, assumptions. In the case that's been spoken of, the 59 between Kings Cross and Waterloo, and my hypothesis of a train traveller using those two stations with the bus link between, that may well be the only time that day they use Oyster or (more likely) a contactless card, in which case the software has no assumptions to go on, just guesswork at best, so TfL may well have underestimated the usage made, but they wouldn't be concerned about that.

 

[matt_world2004]

As you say, assumptions. In the case that's been spoken of, the 59 between Kings Cross and Waterloo, and my hypothesis of a train traveller using those two stations with the bus link between, that may well be the only time that day they use Oyster or (more likely) a contactless card, in which case the software has no assumptions to go on, just guesswork at best, so TfL may well have underestimated the usage made, but they wouldn't be concerned about that.

If they make a return journey on the 59 they will infer where they got on onnthe return journey is where they get off on the outward journey. So far yet there is no cross modal linking in odx.

The greatest falls in demand have been recorded on new bus for london routes and generally coincides with removal of conductors on these routes. The 148 for example has seen a loss of 500 passengers per day. I speculate that demand on these routes probably not fallen to that extent. The amount of paying passengers on the otherhand.

 

[bb21]

As there's no touching out on London buses there can never be definitive answers as to actual journeys made, although assumptions can be made by analysing an individual's Oyster or bank card usage. Of course, if the only usage is on the 59, say, there's no evidence where the individual left the bus. Treat all TfL figures in 'consultations' with scepticism.

Since the well-publicised "manipulation (let's say)" of its consultation results a couple of years ago for proposed changes on the 100 and 388, I am not sure I have any confidence in the objectivity of their so-called "consultation".

I also can't quite believe the claims someone made earlier that a direct link created to improve accessibility between two of the busiest railway stations in this country is rightly curtailed because those people needing it most can "change buses", or that a main thoroughfare is over-bussed simply because it had eight routes running through it.

 

[radamfi]

I also can't quite believe the claims someone made earlier that a direct link created to improve accessibility between two of the busiest railway stations in this country is rightly curtailed because those people needing it most can "change buses", or that a main thoroughfare is over-bussed simply because it had eight routes running through it.

Changing is controversial in the UK, where public transport has low status and where traditionally changing means paying again, but not in places like Switzerland where people understand that changing is essential in order to have high public transport modal share in a country with high car ownership.

The frequency of buses between Waterloo and Holborn is extremely high and it is hard to believe that frequency is necessary to avoid overcrowding, at least outside peak hours. And at peak hours, the 521 is massively ramped up, running every 2-3 minutes. If that's not enough, they could try articulated buses on the 521!

I'm not the only one on this thread who thinks this corridor is overbussed. Even Mr French on his blog said "but alternatives are provided by the 68 as well as many other buses on parts of that route."

 

[Busaholic]

Changing is controversial in the UK, where public transport has low status and where traditionally changing means paying again, but not in places like Switzerland where people understand that changing is essential in order to have high public transport modal share in a country with high car ownership.

The frequency of buses between Waterloo and Holborn is extremely high and it is hard to believe that frequency is necessary to avoid overcrowding, at least outside peak hours. And at peak hours, the 521 is massively ramped up, running every 2-3 minutes. If that's not enough, they could try articulated buses on the 521!

I'm not the only one on this thread who thinks this corridor is overbussed. Even Mr French on his blog said "but alternatives are provided by the 68 as well as many other buses on parts of that route."

What's the frequency of buses between Waterloo and Holborn got to do with a direct link between Waterloo and Kings Cross? In case you haven't noticed, the 59 still makes a contribution to what you call the 'overbussing' of Kingsway, it's only the Euston to Kings Cross section that's gone.

I know you like to hark on about other countries' ways of doing things, but I think (a) you misinterpret or, even, misrepresent practice in many and (b) some of your favoured comparisons are invidious because in, say, Amsterdam or Zurich such corridors would be tram operated (or trolleybus in the latter too.) I may seek out examples from a more representative selection of cities worldwide where the realisation that forcing passengers to change every 'block' to get to their destination is a disincentive to getting people out of their cars, which should be the intention of every city public service provider.

 

[Mikey C]

What's the frequency of buses between Waterloo and Holborn got to do with a direct link between Waterloo and Kings Cross? In case you haven't noticed, the 59 still makes a contribution to what you call the 'overbussing' of Kingsway, it's only the Euston to Kings Cross section that's gone.

I know you like to hark on about other countries' ways of doing things, but I think (a) you misinterpret or, even, misrepresent practice in many and (b) some of your favoured comparisons are invidious because in, say, Amsterdam or Zurich such corridors would be tram operated (or trolleybus in the latter too.) I may seek out examples from a more representative selection of cities worldwide where the realisation that forcing passengers to change every 'block' to get to their destination is a disincentive to getting people out of their cars, which should be the intention of every city public service provider.

Cars aren't an alternative in Central London anyway BUT where things seem to have changed from 10 years ago is that whereas back then buses were highly encouraged as a way of easing pressure on the tube, now buses seem almost to be regarded as part of the "road traffic" problem preventing more walking and cycling.

 

[Ianno87]

Cars aren't an alternative in Central London anyway BUT where things seem to have changed from 10 years ago is that whereas back then buses were highly encouraged as a way of easing pressure on the tube, now buses seem almost to be regarded as part of the "road traffic" problem preventing more walking and cycling.

Walking and Boris Biking are now peddled as the alternatives to short tube journeys it seems.

 

[radamfi]

What's the frequency of buses between Waterloo and Holborn got to do with a direct link between Waterloo and Kings Cross? In case you haven't noticed, the 59 still makes a contribution to what you call the 'overbussing' of Kingsway, it's only the Euston to Kings Cross section that's gone.

I know you like to hark on about other countries' ways of doing things, but I think (a) you misinterpret or, even, misrepresent practice in many and (b) some of your favoured comparisons are invidious because in, say, Amsterdam or Zurich such corridors would be tram operated (or trolleybus in the latter too.) I may seek out examples from a more representative selection of cities worldwide where the realisation that forcing passengers to change every 'block' to get to their destination is a disincentive to getting people out of their cars, which should be the intention of every city public service provider.

I was contributing to the ongoing discussion about overbussing on Kingsway. It should not matter whether vehicles are buses, trolleybuses or trams and there are examples of bus only networks achieving high modal share in Switzerland. Legacy tram systems in mainland Europe tend to operate similarly to buses with frequent stops and are mostly street running. Modern tram systems in Britain, on the other hand, tend to have stops more spread out compared to buses and tend to have a lot of segregated track and are therefore considered to be a more express and premium form of transport.

Had Cross River tram been built, I wonder whether people would be complaining about the lack of direct bus routes as there would have been an inevitable rationalisation of bus services.

 

[radamfi]

Cars aren't an alternative in Central London anyway BUT where things seem to have changed from 10 years ago is that whereas back then buses were highly encouraged as a way of easing pressure on the tube, now buses seem almost to be regarded as part of the "road traffic" problem preventing more walking and cycling.

In the early days of the Ken Livingstone mayoralty, buses were expanded dramatically because it was the only thing that could be done quickly. Ken also started the process of upgrading the Tube and what is now London Overground but the lead time for such schemes are much longer. Now that those rail improvements have happened, plus Crossrail to come, plus a huge increase in central London cycling, there is less need for buses to do the "heavy lifting" for travel in and around central London.

 

[Mikey C]

In the early days of the Ken Livingstone mayoralty, buses were expanded dramatically because it was the only thing that could be done quickly. Ken also started the process of upgrading the Tube and what is now London Overground but the lead time for such schemes are much longer. Now that those rail improvements have happened, plus Crossrail to come, plus a huge increase in central London cycling, there is less need for buses to do the "heavy lifting" for travel in and around central London.

The central London rail improvements are pretty insignificant though. Many of the lines (Central, Piccadilly, Bakerloo) are basically running the same service as they were 15 years ago, Crossrail hasn't happened and the Overground doesn't affect much of central London anyway.

Air quality is an issue clearly, but it does seem that TfL does have far more of a pro cycling anti bus attitude nowadays. It will be interesting if this becomes an issue at future Mayoral elections

 

[Antman]

The central London rail improvements are pretty insignificant though. Many of the lines (Central, Piccadilly, Bakerloo) are basically running the same service as they were 15 years ago, Crossrail hasn't happened and the Overground doesn't affect much of central London anyway.

Air quality is an issue clearly, but it does seem that TfL does have far more of a pro cycling anti bus attitude nowadays. It will be interesting if this becomes an issue at future Mayoral elections

Well for whatever reason, and there are probably various factors, bus usage has visibly declined. I suspect London Overground expansion is a significant factor on routes such as the 47 and 345.

 

[Hophead]

Coach and Bus Week is reporting that the first Enviro400EV entered service on route 43 from 1st July. It isn't clear whether this is the start of a gradual introduction or little more than a one-off - I'd have expected a bit more noise for the latter, if you'll pardon the pun.

Route 43 is to become the first all-electric zero-emission double-decker bus route, along with route 134 which is also operated Metroline.

The first route took to the roads on the morning of 1 July, and the bus’ maiden journey was driven by Afzol Hussain, who has been a driver at Holloway since 2012, and a mentor at the garage training drivers on the new buses.

Afzol said: “It feels good. Out of all the years driving on route 43, starting from driving buses like the VPL, TP…this electric bus is far better.”

He added: “This bus doesn’t make any noise. The passenger doesn’t feel like they are sitting in a bus it is so comfortable. It will have a big impact on the environment; I think that in the next decade, every bus in London will be electric.”

The Enviro400 MMC-bodied buses are the product of BYD collaborating with Alexander Dennis Limited (ADL).

Adrian Jones, Engineering Director, Metroline said: “The launch of the new electric buses on route 43 is a triumph for both Metroline and for London.

“Providing a new challenge for Metroline’s engineering teams, we worked closely with engineers at BYD to develop these new buses, using what we learnt from our trials with their prototypes.

“As a result, they are perfectly designed to deliver Londoners to their destinations, whilst helping to keep London’s air cleaner with zero-emissions.”

 

[DaveLondon]

Coach and Bus Week is reporting that the first Enviro400EV entered service on route 43 from 1st July. It isn't clear whether this is the start of a gradual introduction or little more than a one-off - I'd have expected a bit more noise for the latter, if you'll pardon the pun.

Five out at the moment and seven have been used since the start of the week. David

 

[Hophead]

Five out at the moment and seven have been used since the start of the week. David

Thanks. And to correct my original post, I'd have expected more "noise" for a gradual introduction than a one-off.

 

[MotCO]

The greatest falls in demand have been recorded on new bus for london routes and generally coincides with removal of conductors on these routes. The 148 for example has seen a loss of 500 passengers per day. I speculate that demand on these routes probably not fallen to that extent. The amount of paying passengers on the otherhand.

Another option is that there are more 'not paying' passengers due to the absence of a conductor, and 'enter by any door' does not always result in a 'tap-in'.

 

[jon0844]

TfL must know that people bypass the gates at Finsbury Park underground by using the spiral staircases (or even the new lifts) but they won't admit it as to do so would show the problem with ticketless travel. It's laughable to think that bus usage has fallen when any fool knows people simply don't tap in because the chance of getting caught is extremely slim. And some who are unlucky can just stand their ground, look menacing and jump off at the next stop. Nobody is going to go after them.

 

[matt_world2004]

Another option is that there are more 'not paying' passengers due to the absence of a conductor, and 'enter by any door' does not always result in a 'tap-in'.

That was the point I was making.

 

[Antman]

TfL must know that people bypass the gates at Finsbury Park underground by using the spiral staircases (or even the new lifts) but they won't admit it as to do so would show the problem with ticketless travel. It's laughable to think that bus usage has fallen when any fool knows people simply don't tap in because the chance of getting caught is extremely slim. And some who are unlucky can just stand their ground, look menacing and jump off at the next stop. Nobody is going to go after them.

Bus usage in London certainly has fallen although people not tapping in is a factor.

 

[jon0844]

Bus usage in London certainly has fallen although people not tapping in is a factor.

Where are people going? Using the tube? Scooters? Walking? Or a large number of foreign workers having decided to leave the UK and find somewhere more welcoming to work in Europe?

I haven't personally felt any buses I've been on have been a lot quieter, but that's purely anecdotal.

 

[radamfi]

Where are people going? Using the tube? Scooters? Walking? Or a large number of foreign workers having decided to leave the UK and find somewhere more welcoming to work in Europe?

I haven't personally felt any buses I've been on have been a lot quieter, but that's purely anecdotal.

There are government statistics produced annually

https://assets.publishing.service.g...nnual-bus-statistics-year-ending-mar-2018.pdf

For 17/18

In London, bus use decreased by 0.7% in the latest year but remains 23.5% higher than in the year ending March 2005.

 

[Non Multi]

Where are people going?

Using Uber and other mobile app minicab services. Councils like Reading have seen what happened in London and haven't allowed Uber to trade there.

 

[matt_world2004]

Where are people going? Using the tube? Scooters? Walking? Or a large number of foreign workers having decided to leave the UK and find somewhere more welcoming to work in Europe?

I haven't personally felt any buses I've been on have been a lot quieter, but that's purely anecdotal.

The expansion of companies using work fron home as well. Hell even tfl encourage it now. Thats not nessescarily a bad thing as it improves peoples work life balance and no matter how good you make the customer experiance. Commuting is still a massive stress

 

[Deerfold]

The expansion of companies using work fron home as well. Hell even tfl encourage it now. Thats not nessescarily a bad thing as it improves peoples work life balance and no matter how good you make the customer experiance. Commuting is still a massive stress

Are TfL encouraging it again?

They did for years and did it themselves for years and then had a change in the head of HR who tried to ban it. Some people had contracts explicitly allowing it, but it went from being promoted internally to discouraged overnight.

I wonder if it's allowed for TfL office staff again?

 

[IanD]

The expansion of companies using work fron home as well. Hell even tfl encourage it now. Thats not nessescarily a bad thing as it improves peoples work life balance...

Or it blurs the line between home and and work which is not necessarily a good thing.

 

[Busaholic]

Or it blurs the line between home and and work which is not necessarily a good thing.

I'd agree with you there.

 

[deltic]

As you say, assumptions. In the case that's been spoken of, the 59 between Kings Cross and Waterloo, and my hypothesis of a train traveller using those two stations with the bus link between, that may well be the only time that day they use Oyster or (more likely) a contactless card, in which case the software has no assumptions to go on, just guesswork at best, so TfL may well have underestimated the usage made, but they wouldn't be concerned about that.

As someone who has regularly traveled on the 59 I cant say I have noticed many people using it to travel between Kings Cross and Waterloo at any time of day