Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[bramling]

Sooner or later the 365s will have to go and I expect we'll see a run on order of 700s. It makes little sense to keep such a small fleet that requires driver training and different dispatch procedures.

I’d have said it would be more likely some Electrostars would come from somewhere. There’s a small batch on LTS for a start.

Neither solution maintains the seating capacity of 365s though. The services they currently work don’t need crush loading capabilities.

 

[Aictos]

It seems plausible that in the coming years, Network Rail may float terminating all the Sutton/Wimbledon loop services at Blackfriars again. Perhaps citing service reliability and increased demand on the BML. That would open the door for sending more 12 cars through the core to various 12 car capable destinations.

I hope that doesn't happen because for one it will reduce the service at St Albans which will go down like a lead balloon from the very vocal commuters there!

At the moment, off peak they enjoy 2tph to Rainham, 2tph to Gatwick Airport, 2tph to Brighton and 4tph to Sutton via Wimbledon so currently 10tph and any reduction would be unpopular although I do wonder if they could get away with terminating 2 Loop services per hour at Blackfriars and just have the 2 Loop services at St Albans per hour?

Maybe the @ChiefPlanner @Bald Rick etc can enlighten us?

Rainham stands out to me as being the one where 8-cars is particularly wasteful.

What makes you think that?

 

[700007]

As said before - the 700's are good trains - very good trains compared to the 319's - just need that standard class seating either replaced - or eased out to stop aisle spread or squashed against the heating duct. See Ian Walmsley's comments in "Modern Railways" ....

Definitely agree with the full sentiment of this comment. I would push for the seats used in 1st class to be the same seats used throughout standard class.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I hope that doesn't happen because for one it will reduce the service at St Albans which will go down like a lead balloon from the very vocal commuters there!

At the moment, off peak they enjoy 2tph to Rainham, 2tph to Gatwick Airport, 2tph to Brighton and 4tph to Sutton via Wimbledon so currently 10tph and any reduction would be unpopular although I do wonder if they could get away with terminating 2 Loop services per hour at Blackfriars and just have the 2 Loop services at St Albans per hour?

Maybe the @ChiefPlanner @Bald Rick etc can enlighten us?



What makes you think that?

At a guess , you could (easily) turn 2 Sutton loop services in the bays at Blackfriars. Saving some units and driver time - and , make the Rainham all stations to ensure that the local stations north of Kentish Town retain 4 tph off peak. There is some slack in the latter , and a recast could with luck become clockface. Cutting the Rainham back to SAC would also ease station working at Luton.

Off peak loadings south of SAC are certainly healthy - especially on the fasts , but to a lesser extent on the "Inners" once past Elstree .

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Definitely agree with the full sentiment of this comment. I would push for the seats used in 1st class to be the same seats used throughout standard class.

That would be a perfect solution - including welcome armrests !

 

[Aictos]

At a guess , you could (easily) turn 2 Sutton loop services in the bays at Blackfriars. Saving some units and driver time - and , make the Rainham all stations to ensure that the local stations north of Kentish Town retain 4 tph off peak. There is some slack in the latter , and a recast could with luck become clockface. Cutting the Rainham back to SAC would also ease station working at Luton.

Off peak loadings south of SAC are certainly healthy - especially on the fasts , but to a lesser extent on the "Inners" once past Elstree .

But what would terminate at Luton?

Would they keep the Orpington services all day instead of just during the peak?

It’s a shame that nobody thought of bringing back the Luton to Guildford services...

 

[ijmad]

Doesn’t seem to resolve two obstacles though, one being the relative scarcity of 12-car units (there’s more RLUs than FLUs), and secondly the situation with stabling.

Well, the services on the Sutton loop don't necessarily need to stay as 700s if they're terminating in the Blackfriars bays. Alternatively, it seems like the Desiro City will be being built under various class designations for some time to come. Potential for getting more stock in the future maybe?

I hope that doesn't happen because for one it will reduce the service at St Albans which will go down like a lead balloon from the very vocal commuters there!

I was imagining these services would be connected to additional services to the southern destinations on the BML, or maybe to Rainham.

 

[Aictos]

Well, the services on the Sutton loop don't necessarily need to stay as 700s if they're terminating in the Blackfriars bays. Alternatively, it seems like the Desiro City will be being built under various class designations for some time to come. Potential for getting more stock in the future maybe?

Only problem with that is services do and can interwork with each other so unless you’re proposing the Loop services which don’t go north of Blackfriars are self contained then it’s a non starter.

For example you could have a service start at St Albans head around the loop and terminate at Blackfriars before it goes back around the loop but towards London Bridge etc then repeat in reverse...

I was imagining these services would be connected to additional services to the southern destinations on the BML, or maybe to Rainham.

Having a all day Luton to Orpington/Guildford would give direct connections from both south west and south east London to north of London, do it so XX:18 goes to Orpington and XX:48 goes to Guildford from Luton with 2 services from St Albans going to Rainham.

 

[bramling]

I hope that doesn't happen because for one it will reduce the service at St Albans which will go down like a lead balloon from the very vocal commuters there!

At the moment, off peak they enjoy 2tph to Rainham, 2tph to Gatwick Airport, 2tph to Brighton and 4tph to Sutton via Wimbledon so currently 10tph and any reduction would be unpopular although I do wonder if they could get away with terminating 2 Loop services per hour at Blackfriars and just have the 2 Loop services at St Albans per hour?

Maybe the @ChiefPlanner @Bald Rick etc can enlighten us?



What makes you think that?

We read on here about how the Southeastern franchise has had little provision of extra rolling stock, and about house building in general in the area, yet a very busy suburban line - capable of taking longer trains - has a key service run by 8-car trains. This may be adequate off-peak, but it seems poor in the peaks. Same north of the river.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It’s a shame that nobody thought of bringing back the Luton to Guildford services...

I could swear here - "no" , total waste of units and crews - fresh air mostly - and thus recycled way back (in the teeth of "Southern" hostility to double up north of the Thames to East Croydon / GTW and BTN destinations - the compromise being "Thameslink" covering the smaller (but busy) shacks south of Haywards Heath.

SWT stepped into the breach by working Guildford - West Croydon locals , but the SRA kncoked them out ,as off peak (and I humbly stand to be corrected) - again fresh air.. A few residuals still exist on the "New LIne"

"Thameslink" is more than "crayonista" joining up the terminal dots , as I suggested about taking out Tattenham Corner services not so long ago -"tennis court and 4x4 land" - not a substantial traffic generators.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

But what would terminate at Luton?

Would they keep the Orpington services all day instead of just during the peak?

It’s a shame that nobody thought of bringing back the Luton to Guildford services...

In my view - Luton is well served anyway off peak , create a bit of white space. Peak maybe do something for "struggling" Harpenden* who are still very sort about losing the right to the "last" seats to the arriista 7.4 million at the nearest Cathedral City of St Albans.

*semi-fast , cos the interchange at West Hampstead is very valuable , and "offs" there fill up with "ons"

Orpington - not sure .......peak only is handy

 

[yorkie]

This thread is a traction & rolling stock discussion regarding Class 700s.

If anyone wishes to discuss the current timetable and/or allocations please create a thread (if there isn't one already) in the timetabling and allocations section of the forum

If anyone wishes to post ideas for changes to service provision please create a thread (if there isn't one already) in the speculative ideas section of the forum

Thanks

 

[Aictos]

We know that there’s a shortage of 12 car Class 700s with 8 cars having to be used on 12 car services so would we see a add on order by the next Franchise to order more 12 cars?

 

[ijmad]

We know that there’s a shortage of 12 car Class 700s with 8 cars having to be used on 12 car services so would we see a add on order by the next Franchise to order more 12 cars?

Out of interest, is it possible to extend an 8 car to a 12 car with the addition of four specific extra cars, or are there more fundamental differences in layout?

Or perhaps other issues I'm not aware of?

 

[aleggatta]

We know that there’s a shortage of 12 car Class 700s with 8 cars having to be used on 12 car services so would we see a add on order by the next Franchise to order more 12 cars?

Out of interest, is it possible to extend an 8 car to a 12 car with the addition of four specific extra cars, or are there more fundamental differences in layout?

Or perhaps other issues I'm not aware of?

It is a relatively straightforwards operation to insert the 4 extra cars, the current 8 car formations even leave the vehicle numbers available to use without renumbering a whole set, however the contract established with Siemens included maintenance, and so I think it would be more of a legal/financial renegotiation than simply inserting the cars into the relevant positions? but of course, if the DfT want something to happen it can be made to happen!

 

[hwl]

Out of interest, is it possible to extend an 8 car to a 12 car with the addition of four specific extra cars, or are there more fundamental differences in layout?

Or perhaps other issues I'm not aware of?

4 additional cars and new transformers on the existing pantograph cars. The existing 8 cars transformers only have 4 secondary windings but they need 6 each for 12 car.

 

[samuelmorris]

Any ideas what this noise is?

(apologies for phone interference)
I'm used to hearing it when units change power mode or clear a neutral section, but it kept going off at this rate, continuously for the entire journey. I only boarded at Farringdon so couldn't tell if it was happening before the switch to DC.

 

[spark001uk]

I find it quite staggering these still need to be switched on, drawing power. How long's it been now?

 

[trainmania100]

Looks like one of the 700s has a gay pride livery, it's multi colurs

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Looks like one of the 700s has a gay pride livery, it's multi colurs

Pics...???

 

[trainmania100]

Pics...???

Not my pic

 

[Ladder23]

Yes, 700155.

 

[Steve Harris]

Looks like one of the 700s has a gay pride livery, it's multi colurs

No doubt GTR are jumping on the pink pound bandwagon!

 

[trainmania100]

Yes, 700155.

Thanks for the gen

 

[Railperf]

I joined Thameslink service from London Bridge to Brighton on Saturday and was shocked to see this service more or less completely full. The decision to run 12 car trains is fully justified.
One thing that really irks me though is how poor the performance is on DC compared to AC. After the initial burst to around 30 miles per hour these feel like they're only running on half the traction Motors.
The trains are very bright and clean compared to the 377 also in use on the Brighton line.

 

[Hadders]

I joined Thameslink service from London Bridge to Brighton on Saturday and was shocked to see this service more or less completely full. The decision to run 12 car trains is fully justified.

Saturday nights are 'peak time' for people travelling home from a day or night out in London. The loading indicator display on my train home late on Saturday evening had 5 carriages showing red. We have quieter trains in the weekday morning peak!

 

[Railperf]

Saturday nights are 'peak time' for people travelling home from a day or night out in London. The loading indicator display on my train home late on Saturday evening had 5 carriages showing red. We have quieter trains in the weekday morning peak!

Actually this was Saturday lunchtime and I'm guessing 50% was probably people going to the airport

 

[samuelmorris]

Actually this was Saturday lunchtime and I'm guessing 50% was probably people going to the airport

The number of people getting off at St Pancras with suitcases at any time of the day is extraordinary. The escalators (not that they're meant to be using them) barely cope.

 

[TRAX]

Pics...???

Pics are from @sparkyscrum on Twitter.

 

[Hadders]

I thought 'one' railway was making a comeback when I saw the front car.