Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

[175001]

The current STP DMU diagram on the Chat Moss is no more from Monday

319 back on it

 

[Mathew S]

It is 7 diagrams on day one, not 9 units.

7x195s, 2x331s is it not?
Northern have been pretty clear the total is 9.

 

[scrapy]

7x195s, 2x331s is it not?
Northern have been pretty clear the total is 9.

That's correct. It should however be noted that the 7 diagrams in the North West in particular are subject to crew availability as not all crews have been trained on the new units. These are being looked at a few days before once rosters are done and older units may be substituted. 7 is a maximum.

 

[sprinterguy]

The 150/2s from GWR are 202, 207 and 216 which are the Angel ones with 2+3 seating

Ah, thanks for that, that clarifies things. Thought I could recall that 150207 was involved, wasn't sure if there were others.

 

[Mathew S]

That's correct. It should however be noted that the 7 diagrams in the North West in particular are subject to crew availability as not all crews have been trained on the new units. These are being looked at a few days before once rosters are done and older units may be substituted. 7 is a maximum.

Very good point.

Assuming that Northern do manage to get crews trained on the new units rapidly enough for them to be introduced at a decent pace, would it not make sense to use these new trains to displace Sprinters that need to go away for modifications/refurbishment, rather than taking out Pacers? So long as there is works capacity to do it, increasing the number of Sprinters being refubished at any one time should logically allow the whole fleet to get done sooner, and so allow Pacers to be displaced by the refurbished units?

 

[cactustwirly]

I wish nothing but good luck on the
success of 195s,but let's have them ALL in service before ANY Pacer withdrawals.
Anything less would be premature especially if things go wrong.
Having nothing to fall back on is not ideal if the worst ever happens.

That would be an insane amount of money and time wasted.
All train introductions are phased, when the GWR HSTs were replaced, a few HST sets went off lease, when a new set of diagrams went over to 800s.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Back to the topic at hand, I see the first pacer withdrawal happening sometime in August, providing everything goes well.

 

[darloscott]

Where do Northern store all these extra units if we keep all these extras in service? I could see them pushing some more off for refurb but in otherwise finding space to store all these extra 80+ units will be a struggle....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Where do Northern store all these extra units if we keep all these extras in service? I could see them pushing some more off for refurb but in otherwise finding space to store all these extra 80+ units will be a struggle....

How many could Newton Heath have space to store these days?

 

[Mathew S]

Where do Northern store all these extra units if we keep all these extras in service? I could see them pushing some more off for refurb but in otherwise finding space to store all these extra 80+ units will be a struggle....

I mean, I think it's a daft idea on cost grounds if nothing else, but if you really, really, really wanted to keep all the Pacers until every single new/refurbished train was in service, you could use places like Long Martson, and so on. It's a daft idea, but not actually impossible.

 

[Buspilot]

Isn't there some room at Guide Bridge?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Isn't there some room at Guide Bridge?

I mentioned Newton Heath earlier as it was an enclosed rail unit depot with a good number of stabling lines, but not being a regular visitor to the Guide Bridge area, do you mean those lines either side of the main running lines after the junction past the station there where I remember large ballast storage areas?

 

[Buspilot]

Correct. The sidings to the right of the main line, going towards Stalybridge, are unused these days I think.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Correct. The sidings to the right of the main line, going towards Stalybridge, are unused these days I think.

Given the state of some of the ballast wagons that are (or were) on the opposite side of the running lines, it doesn't strike me as an ideal place to store any stock with a use beyond being turned into razor-blades. Not only were many wagons heavily graffitoed, but I recall several had had their unloading hatches opened. Those that were left partly loaded were left stuck as a result.

 

[thenorthern]

There was something in the news about the Pacers being withdrawn by the end of 2020 I think I read which I think means the pacers won't be withdrawn on time.

 

[Bertie the bus]

All of the cascaded stock has already arrived barring a couple of prospective 150s from GWR, which I'm unsure if they've ever been officially confirmed (150001/002 and a 150/2, I believe). Which does concern me as to how effectively 58 class 195s will directly or indirectly replace 102 Pacer units (None of the new 331s will replace Pacers), given that all that cascaded stock hasn't made the slightest dent in their numbers.

It’s not quite that simple. I’ve lost track, and interest, in what new services Northern were supposed to be introducing and which ones have been delayed and which are likely to not happen at all, but York – Scarborough and Middlesbrough – Newcastle certainly look to be happening. There may be others? So, it isn’t just new stock replacing old stock, Northern will require additional units to support the new services. Therefore, it could be more like 50 new units replacing 102 Pacers.

 

[Cambrian359]

There was something in the news about the Pacers being withdrawn by the end of 2020 I think I read which I think means the pacers won't be withdrawn on time.

It was The bbc news article that stated end of 2020, could be a mistake or they could have let slip something

 

[mrcaa]

It was The bbc news article that stated end of 2020, could be a mistake or they could have let slip something

I’m pretty sure I heard the guy from Northern not answering this question on the North West Tonight piece. He certainly seemed to imply from his squirming that there will still be plenty of Pacers in service next year.

 

[SC43090]

7x195s, 2x331s is it not?
Northern have been pretty clear the total is 9.

Correct 2x 331s diagrams for Doncaster Leeds Doncaster services from Monday 1st July 2019......

SC 43090

 

[Killingworth]

I’m pretty sure I heard the guy from Northern not answering this question on the North West Tonight piece. He certainly seemed to imply from his squirming that there will still be plenty of Pacers in service next year.

In Northern's position they could give two answers, "categorically no Pacers under any circumstances", or "maybe a few Pacers might have to be kept if we are to meet all customer aspirations, with suitable dispensation from the DfT". It seems they said neither.

The first would give a hostage to fortune, no matter how well things may seem to be going. Too many uncertain factors might come into play, some known but others unpredictable The second would throw the ball back to the DfT. Would we want more short formed trains, new routes delayed, greater frequencies deferred or a few retained Pacers?

I'd be aiming to provide the first, but preparing for the second. I'd not want to actually say either but would have some sacrificial Pacers targetted to go by the end of August. By October I'd be a lot more certain of what can realistically be promised.

 

[driver_m]

Would be quite ironic if they initially store them in the South East given the amount of times people ask of any have been seen in London’s Commuterland. Is there anywhere down there to dump them? Food for thought.

 

[Karl]

I think they meant the end of 2019, or the beginning of 2020? PRM regulations don't allow the Pacers next year.

 

[EIKN]

Hi guys hope your all enjoying the sun. Does anyone have a more concrete idea of what class will replace the Scunthorpe Doncaster pacers , we've been hearing class 170 ( 2 car) or 2 car 158;, as the Hull via good 158 is getting replaced with the newer trains .
Or is there any substance in the rumour EMT. May operate these services , as they are to Barrow upon Humber . At least they don't have Pacers or to my knowledge 150's

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Hi guys hope your all enjoying the sun. Does anyone have a more concrete idea of what class will replace the Scunthorpe Doncaster pacers , we've been hearing class 170 ( 2 car) or 2 car 158;, as the Hull via good 158 is getting replaced with the newer trains .
Or is there any substance in the rumour EMT. May operate these services , as they are to Barrow upon Humber . At least they don't have Pacers or to my knowledge 150's

If we assume a logical cascade, those services which predominantly see Pacers today will see the most basic stock which will be 150s. These are planned for Penistone line services which is pretty solid Pacer territory at present. There may be some local variations down to traction knowledge and specific restrictions (no 150s for Durham Coast for example) but generally speaking Pacers will be replaced directly by Sprinters.

 

[alangla]

Where do Northern store all these extra units if we keep all these extras in service? I could see them pushing some more off for refurb but in otherwise finding space to store all these extra 80+ units will be a struggle....

The last time they dumped Pacers it was at Blackpool, is there still space there after the rebuild? Also, is that temporary stabling site in Leyland still there? Personally I think the best place is probably Booth’s though

 

[thejuggler]

News piece on BBC which has lots of words, but confirms nothing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-48816961

 

[Meerkat]

Surely if Pacers were really Museum pieces as Burnham claims then people would be queuing up to get on them (and leaning off platforms to take selfies obvs)?

 

[LOL The Irony]

News piece on BBC which has lots of words, but confirms nothing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-48816961

Watch this video from the timestamp provided in this link. It's better than that article.

 

[Ken H]

Saw a 3 car 144 at Settle Jct yesterday on (I think) 2Y01 1432 Morecambe = Leeds.

 

[fowler9]

Surely if Pacers were really Museum pieces as Burnham claims then people would be queuing up to get on them (and leaning off platforms to take selfies obvs)?

Some things belong in a museum without people wanting their photo taken next to them. I'm sure you can think of a few.