TPE Scotland/Bolton/Manchester. How to stop commuters boarding?

[Starmill]

I'm sorry if anybody is offended but no business is going to spend bucket loads of cash in order to seat some commuters on a very short trip.

Nearly all trains on this route currently have all seats taken. I understand that, at the moment, all trains are formed with 4 coaches due to some trains being long-term out of use? It is just a question of more or less standing space.

If they carried 'commuters' the net result would just be more people standing. There is however no question of conventional morning peak and evening peak commuters from Bolton being carried on these services as they won't call at all.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think this thread is complete nonsense tbh, there seems to be a special entitlement for intercity services on this forum.
Having pick up/set down only restrictions is only going to create problems, and isn't a very good solution to the actual problem.
It would be better to increase the capacity of all trains serving Bolton to spread the load, rather than pointlessly making things more inconvenient for the passenger

 

[Starmill]

You're missing people using ICs for prestige reasons...

Ah! The prestige of a 2013 4 car class 350, what a killer!

 

[PermitToTravel]

How is it similar? In one case, you cannot have possibly come from Preston, and legitimately may not even be aware of the restriction. In the other case, you are almost by definition aware, and it could easily be argued you intend to go to Preston.

I wouldn't bet on a court sharing that view. I'm quite confident that the criminality in both scenarios is the same.

 

[LittleAH]

I think this thread is complete nonsense tbh, there seems to be a special entitlement for intercity services on this forum.
Having pick up/set down only restrictions is only going to create problems, and isn't a very good solution to the actual problem.
It would be better to increase the capacity of all trains serving Bolton to spread the load, rather than pointlessly making things more inconvenient for the passenger

Not calling at Bolton would solve it. Want to go to Lancaster/Lakes/Scotland - change at Preston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah! The prestige of a 2013 4 car class 350, what a killer!

The new CAF kit looks like it could be, seats aside, the best IC train on the network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be better to increase the capacity of all trains serving Bolton to spread the load, rather than pointlessly making things more inconvenient for the passenger

We are now arriving at Reading...

In all seriousness, no, it wouldn't. What's the point of running a long train to Scotland if the capacity is only needed between Manchester and Bolton/Preston?

 

[cactustwirly]

We are now arriving at Reading...

In all seriousness, no, it wouldn't. What's the point of running a long train to Scotland if the capacity is only needed between Manchester and Bolton/Preston?

Well you make the Northern service more attractive, and give it more capacity, which should spread the commuters thinly across all of the services

 

[sprunt]

Where did mwmbwls say that???

In post 199. You should have seen it, you quoted it in post 202, ironically, apparently without having read it.

 

[Starmill]

In post 199. You should have seen it, you quoted it in post 202, ironically, apparently without having read it.

Except that post 199 does not ask if there is, as you put it, "any reason why some Manchester to Preston services could not be altered to stop calling at Bolton".

 

[Clip]

Well you make the Northern service more attractive, and give it more capacity, which should spread the commuters thinly across all of the services

There are 7 departures tomorrow between the hours of 1000 - 1100 towards Manchester

Out of interest how many more does Bolton need during this time?

 

[VT 390]

There are 7 departures tomorrow between the hours of 1000 - 1100 towards Manchester

Out of interest how many more does Bolton need during this time?

But are they evenly split between Piccadilly and Victoria?

 

[Glenn1969]

4 to Victoria (1020, 33, 41 and 48) and 3 to Piccadilly

 

[cactustwirly]

4 to Victoria (1020, 33, 41 and 48) and 3 to Piccadilly

How fast are they though? An all shacks rammed 150s wouldn't be as popular as a nice fast 319 service.

 

[Clip]

But are they evenly split between Piccadilly and Victoria?

You cant really spread 7 evenly im afraid, though with the tram between the stations(and it being walkable) im not sure it matters that much

How fast are they though? An all shacks rammed 150s wouldn't be as popular as a nice fast 319 service.

Slowest 27 minutes fastest 19 minutes. So 8 mins difference which isnt a lot at all... So whats the problem again?

 

[Glenn1969]

The hourly stopper takes 24min. The other Victoria trains take c20min. The Piccadilly trains take 26, 21 and 23 minutes (the 1009 train gets held for 3min at Water Street so is booked to take longer than the other two)

 

[thealexweb]

Not calling at Bolton would solve it. Want to go to Lancaster/Lakes/Scotland - change at Preston.

Nope, like many I have spent 100's of hours doing that for the last few years. Anyway, its a franchise breach to not provide the calls anyway.

 

[Starmill]

How fast are they though? An all shacks rammed 150s wouldn't be as popular as a nice fast 319 service.

There are 7 trains per hour from Bolton to Salford Crescent. Only 1 calls at the 3 intermediate stations, Moses Gate, Farnworth and Kearsley. 3 continue towards Manchester Piccadilly, 4 continue towards Manchester Victoria.

Nearly every Manchester bound train calls at Salford Crescent, except the TransPennine Express services which of course currently don't call at Bolton. There is only one exception I'm aware of, which is the 1943 Barrow-in-Furness to Manchester Airport - this still runs non-stop from Preston to Manchester Oxford Road. If there are any more I'm happy to be enlightened. (The last Blackpool also doesn't stop, 2345ish from Manchester Airport, but again I understand that one is non-stop all the way from Manchester Piccadilly to Preston, so that it can be diverted).

 

[Antman]

More local complaints about the service. But to be honest, local journalism makes it less easy to follow...

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/new...provements-to-appalling-sunday-train-service/

Looks like a rubbish Sunday service, compared to a weekday service. I can’t tell if there are any trains at these stations at all, or just these services don’t stop. So they have to change in Manchester. Either any, I thought part of the point of electric trains was harder acceleration, and therefore can have more stops. I can’t see how the traffic is so heavy on a Sunday they can’t have the stops they do have during the week....

 

[Starmill]

Looks like a rubbish Sunday service, compared to a weekday service. I can’t tell if there are any trains at these stations at all, or just these services don’t stop. So they have to change in Manchester. Either any, I thought part of the point of electric trains was harder acceleration, and therefore can have more stops. I can’t see how the traffic is so heavy on a Sunday they can’t have the stops they do have during the week....

There is no Sunday service at Farnworth, Kearsley or Moses Gate. I am not sure when there last was, but you are probably going back decades. There's no Sunday service at nearby Ryder Brow, Fairfield, Padgate or Chassen Road either. Northern introduced a Sunday service last year to nearby Flixton and Patricroft. In 2017, Northern started running half-hourly Sunday services on the nearby Atherton line, and extended hours of operation into the evening.

I don't think it has anything to do with traffic.

As it happens, Glazebrook, Belle Vue, Humphrey Park and Trafford Park also have no Sunday services, but they have very few weekday services and are of limited use to anybody. Clifton has next to no service, and nothing on Sundays. We all know the score on Ardwick, Denton and Reddish South.

 

[mwmbwls]

The TPE services that commuters might be tempted to use do not stop at Bolton, and that is not going to change. The TPE services that are going to commence calling at Bolton, subject to the restrictions that are the topic of this thread, are at times of day when there are few if any Bolton to Manchester commuters.

For avoidance of doubt, the southbound services that will be set down only will arrive at Bolton at the following (approximate) times:
1005, 1106, 1206, 1305, 1406, 1506, 1606, 1707, 1805, 1906, 2006, 2106, 2201, 2306.

The northbound services that will be pickup only will depart Bolton at the following approximate times:
0513, 0642, 0743, 0844, 0944, 1044, 1144, 1244, 1344, 1444, 1544, 1944, 2044, 2139.

At these times of day the alternative Northern services normally have lots of empty seats. Commuters who work in Bolton and travel from Manchester are a rare breed!

These services already are, and will remain, non stop at Bolton. See TPE Scotland/Bolton/Manchester. How to stop commuters boarding? (Post #175 of this thread).

Thank you for that clarification - I did not appreciate the significance of your non stopping trees missing in your stopping wood. The crunch point I feared has been appreciated by TPE and addressed.

 

[LittleAH]

Nope, like many I have spent 100's of hours doing that for the last few years. Anyway, its a franchise breach to not provide the calls anyway.

They are providing the calls, just not at commuter friendly times. I bet as a business they won't lose much revenue by doing so, in fact are likely to lose more, as I previously mentioned, by those who buy Northern only tickets. TPE probably make more revenue off leisure travel too, which is what the set down/pick up calls make sense.

TPE will get some heat, but the reality is the issue lies with the rolling stock that Northern have. If they had sufficient modern stock, and they are getting some, then there wouldn't be the clamour to board a TPE train. And I really doubt any more than a handful of people commute from Bolton to Lancaster at peak times, which is a 5/10 min wait at Wigan/Preston.

 

[Trackman]

I was at Bolton last Saturday and yesterday and by luck saw TPE's pass on the up and down lines (around midday). They were rammed. I think a seat reservation would be essential- it fact all I saw was a sea of white tickets above the seats. On the up on Saturday it was packed and standing in the aisles- could have a been a concert on or something, I'm glad it didn't stop!

 

[Trackman]

29th July it's starting (nothing in RTT yet).

 

[Mogster]

You cant really spread 7 evenly im afraid, though with the tram between the stations(and it being walkable) im not sure it matters that much


Slowest 27 minutes fastest 19 minutes. So 8 mins difference which isnt a lot at all... So whats the problem again?

If I was commuting between Bolton and Manchester I’d be on that faster TPE service every time, even if it meant standing in the toilet

You need to understand commuters.

 

[Clip]

If I was commuting between Bolton and Manchester I’d be on that faster TPE service every time, even if it meant standing in the toilet

You need to understand commuters.

I do understand commuters thanks i have been one most of my life. And those are the current timings for the trains already in service and not the TPE one

 

[Ianno87]

If I was commuting between Bolton and Manchester I’d be on that faster TPE service every time, even if it meant standing in the toilet

You need to understand commuters.

Bolton commuters generally don't care - pretty much every service is 'fast' (non stop Bolton to Salford Crescent. It is very much a turn-up-and-go ethos, not aiming for specific trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You need to understand commuters.

Some commuters. There are those who change at Leighton on the way south from Bletchley to get to Euston 5-10 minutes quicker. Those ones I will never understand as they gain very little time but guarantee that they will not get a seat even though they had one from Bletchley (almost all peak time southbound services from Bletchley have a certain seat except when VT is disrupted).

It's worth doing northbound though.

 

[bengley]

There is no Sunday service at Farnworth, Kearsley or Moses Gate. I am not sure when there last was, but you are probably going back decades. There's no Sunday service at nearby Ryder Brow, Fairfield, Padgate or Chassen Road either. Northern introduced a Sunday service last year to nearby Flixton and Patricroft. In 2017, Northern started running half-hourly Sunday services on the nearby Atherton line, and extended hours of operation into the evening.

I don't think it has anything to do with traffic.

As it happens, Glazebrook, Belle Vue, Humphrey Park and Trafford Park also have no Sunday services, but they have very few weekday services and are of limited use to anybody. Clifton has next to no service, and nothing on Sundays. We all know the score on Ardwick, Denton and Reddish South.

If this was the case in 2017 it certainly isn't now. We have a poor hourly service on the Atherton line on Sundays.

 

[Taunton]

no business is going to spend bucket loads of cash in order to seat some commuters .

You are of course correct. What is happening here is that NO cash is being spent but the operator is looking to scoop significant revenue. It's a variation on an Orcats Raid. The service is Manchester to Scotland, but by opening it up to passengers doing Bolton to Manchester, generally a Northern preserve, they can collect a proportion of the revenue from that flow. So they are never going to make the train unable to pick up there, as it will cost them money.