Caledonian Sleeper

[GrimShady]

Can't the H&S rules for Sleepers be bent a little with regard to light values, fittings and other stuff that's annoying people?

The Maritime world is full of what we call "exemptions" from the flag state/Solas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't the H&S rules for Sleepers be bent a little with regard to light values, fittings and other stuff that's annoying people?

The Maritime world is full of what we call "exemptions" from the flag state/Solas.

They could probably do with having different rules on things like lighting as the situation is very different. The seated coach is more comparable to an aircraft cabin in terms of the need for people to move around, and those don't leave full lighting on all night.

But I reckon people could live with the minor issues like that if they could just operate the service reliably. They are quite minor, and you can solve them with a bit of insulation tape or similar. (And in the Mk2s the lights are on all night in the seats anyway).

 

[Leisurefirst]

Get on first & don’t choose the back row as it might not recline as much and the toilet might get whiffy. Front row on the left offers a view out the front & probably full recline, plus you can chat to the driver

Cheers pal, already done that the first time I had the CS "experience"'!
Bussed from Waverley in the pouring rain at 4am to FW!
My complaint that part of the reason to travel was to do the journey on the WHL (I was coming back from Kyle via Inverness) was met with the response that at least they got me there...

 

[Bletchleyite]

My complaint that part of the reason to travel was to do the journey on the WHL (I was coming back from Kyle via Inverness was met with the response that at least they got me there.

That's just one of those things. I've had a taxi down the Conwy Valley when I went there specifically to do it by train.

I've done FW to Glasgow by Citylink coach a number of times[1], and the scenery is easily as spectacular as it is by train, anyway, and you get a better view of it through the massive windows coaches tend to have. One particular memory, on the early Sunday morning bus, is of a man and (I guess) his son just appearing out of a field in one of the long moorland sections and flagging us down - clearly been wild camping! So if I was in the seats I wouldn't be too bothered about being bussed from Edinburgh to FW.

The issue really is people who have paid for sleeper cabins so they can actually sleep and aren't getting them.

[1] The reason being that in winter there's no Sunday morning train from FW, which means you can't get all the way back down South on a Sunday unless you take the morning Citylink to Glasgow or you fly the long stretch instead. I believe the term for this is "throwing business away" - I reckon even a permanent RRB in the timetable (in the manner of the Saturday 0200 buses off Euston) would sell tickets.

 

[GrimShady]

37/4s handled load 6 with ease in the 80s and 90s (and providing ETS too). In the era of 37/0s, load 6 or even 7 + 74-ton ETHEL was not unheard of and they seemed to manage just fine. Obviously it depended how well-maintained the 37 was but I doubt that any drivers would have batted an eyelid at taking a single 37 (or even a 27) over the route with load 6 in the BR Blue era.

Interestingly, I have in my collection a repair book from 37114, when it was first reallocated from March to Eastfield to replace Class 27s on secondary passenger work in 1981. Many of these were initially in poor condition after years of hammer on the Eastern region, and did not seem a massive improvement over the 27s they replaced. A Mallaig driver famously wrote at the bottom of his entry (lamenting an inoperable boiler, draughty cabs, low power and continuous wheel slip) ’About time this wreck went to Doncaster for overhaul or scrap. Give us back our 27s, at least they work.’ Yet the 37s on the WHL grew to be a great success story...

I'm sure 27s were being trusted with up to load 10 MK1 back in the 70s.

 

[MrEd]

I'm assuming the reason for this is to join the first ScotRail service of the day from there to FW (having originated at Glasgow). Which does make some sort of sense, but they could actually bother to state that.

Oh...from Euston...sorry - misread! What are they doing, running the seated coach and the lounge only? That'd be one to get a photo of - you don't see many 2-car non-top-and-tailed LHCS trains!

If they are running the sleeper coaches to FW, I'd rather be bussed to Edinburgh than Dumbarton, as I could at least get 4 hours or so kip.

Possibly (I don’t know so don’t quote me) the stock for 1Y11 is being brought up from
Polmadie to the WHL so Dumbarton seems the most convenient staffed station (with a car park on a major road?) for a coach to meet the train. It’s hardly ideal, to say the least, but better than nothing.

 

[trebor79]

Can't the H&S rules for Sleepers be bent a little with regard to light values, fittings and other stuff that's annoying people?

The Maritime world is full of what we call "exemptions" from the flag state/Solas.

Indeed and they can be very significant. Such as the Queen Mary 2's lifeboats being mounted much higher than the rules allow. They got an exemption, for no practical reason other than the designer wanted the ship to look a bit nicer.

Set against that, the absolute rigidity on the railways of things like lighting, door buttons etc seems unreasonable. Perhaps it's because ocean going ships comply with international standards overseen by a body that is prepared to allow the spirit rather than the absolute letter of the rules to be followed. RVAR and TSI-PRM all link back to EU rules. The UK has always seemed to apply them very rigidly.
Not saying one way is right and the other is wrong. But yeah, little roll of black electrical tape will be in my bag if I travel on the sleeper again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possibly (I don’t know so don’t quote me) the stock for 1Y11 is being brought up from
Polmadie to the WHL so Dumbarton seems the most convenient staffed station (with a car park on a major road?) for a coach to meet the train. It’s hardly ideal, to say the least, but better than nothing.

They say it's starting from Edinburgh, though. Why not bus to there?

 

[MrEd]

I'm sure 27s were being trusted with up to load 10 MK1 back in the 70s.

That would have been quite a pull for a 27, but doable I’m sure. I do know that they were worked very hard on the Scottish region and achieved some pretty incredible feats for Type 2 locos; this did take their toll on their traction motors in the end.

 

[MrEd]

They say it's starting from Edinburgh, though. Why not bus to there?

Could it be to do with the fact that the coach (which might be the one which came down from Glasgow last night) is Glasgow/Strathclyde based and that Dumbarton is perhaps the closest place the coach can get to the Fort William train before the driver runs out of hours.

Dumbarton may well be conveniently located for the motorway network from the south, as it’s just over the Erskine Bridge from Glasgow airport.

Is there any ticket acceptance with LNER/VTWC so that passengers can get to Edinburgh/Glasgow/Dumbarton the previous evening and meet the train in the morning? I’d myself consider going north Sunday evening, staying in a Travelodge etc in/near Dumbarton and meeting the train there. Might be extra expense but would be preferable to a night on a coach. Hopefully CS are giving out some compensation if not full refunds.

 

[Megafuss]

They say it's starting from Edinburgh, though. Why not bus to there?

travel time. It takes about the same amount of time to do Edinburgh as Dumbarton by road, so I presume the coach can leave a bit later if it was to go to Dumbarton as it takes 90 or so minutes to get from Edinburgh and Dumbarton on the train

Thinking about it, I'd rather get off a coach about 6 rather than 4:30

 

[route:oxford]

Offer that as a choice perhaps, but, plane won't work for everyone (and some guests might not have the necessary documentation on their person).

For a domestic BA flight, you don't need ID.

 

[GrimShady]

Indeed and they can be very significant. Such as the Queen Mary 2's lifeboats being mounted much higher than the rules allow. They got an exemption, for no practical reason other than the designer wanted the ship to look a bit nicer.

Set against that, the absolute rigidity on the railways of things like lighting, door buttons etc seems unreasonable. Perhaps it's because ocean going ships comply with international standards overseen by a body that is prepared to allow the spirit rather than the absolute letter of the rules to be followed. RVAR and TSI-PRM all link back to EU rules. The UK has always seemed to apply them very rigidly.
Not saying one way is right and the other is wrong. But yeah, little roll of black electrical tape will be in my bag if I travel on the sleeper again.

I believe the concern was also taking swell on the beam in winter crossing the pond damaging the lifeboats. Plenty of ships crossing the pond with much smaller a freeboard.

Anyway back to rail. I have a very good sleep mask I purchased off Amazon for the sleeper and early day trains but I do think they should consider dimming the lights in the seated sleeper. IIRC Strathclyde Buses used to dim the lights at night, long time ago. IC trains in general could do with doing the same in my view.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyway back to rail. I have a very good sleep mask I purchased off Amazon for the sleeper and early day trains but I do think they should consider dimming the lights in the seated sleeper. IIRC Strathclyde Buses used to dim the lights at night, long time ago. IC trains in general could do with doing the same in my view.

Or you just have nice subdued lighting anyway, e.g. Pendolinos. Or, to be a bit more on topic, the Riviera seated coaches, which have very stylish LED lighting. As I said some don't like the seats but the Riviera refurb really is a superb quality job.

 

[Leisurefirst]

That's just one of those things. I've had a taxi down the Conwy Valley when I went there specifically to do it by train.

I've done FW to Glasgow by Citylink coach a number of times[1], and the scenery is easily as spectacular as it is by train, anyway, and you get a better view of it through the massive windows coaches tend to have. One particular memory, on the early Sunday morning bus, is of a man and (I guess) his son just appearing out of a field in one of the long moorland sections and flagging us down - clearly been wild camping! So if I was in the seats I wouldn't be too bothered about being bussed from Edinburgh to FW.

The issue really is people who have paid for sleeper cabins so they can actually sleep and aren't getting them.

[1] The reason being that in winter there's no Sunday morning train from FW, which means you can't get all the way back down South on a Sunday unless you take the morning Citylink to Glasgow or you fly the long stretch instead. I believe the term for this is "throwing business away" - I reckon even a permanent RRB in the timetable (in the manner of the Saturday 0200 buses off Euston) would sell tickets.

Sure!
The coach was surprisingly enjoyable thanks to a very nice, funny driver and new coach.
However, I was not looking forward to it, worried it might make me feel sick and I was only spending a week in Fort William because of the Sleeper so it was really once in a lifetime.
The journey was indeed lovely but I spent most of it asleep... which I probably wouldn't have done on the Sleeper!
I did eventually get to do it again two years later as the accommodation and owners in FW were so nice I found a reason to justify going again.
Whilst the views were amazing, being squashed in a table of 4 opposite people who got on at Queen Street so I couldn't stretch my legs in the "shabby chic" seated carriage we changed onto at Waverley after 8 hours plus amother 5 odd was unforgettable for the wrong reasons.
(Was supposed to be mk5 when I booked).
I know, there's no pleasing me.

 

[mmh]

I believe the concern was also taking swell on the beam in winter crossing the pond damaging the lifeboats. Plenty of ships crossing the pond with much smaller a freeboard.

Anyway back to rail. I have a very good sleep mask I purchased off Amazon for the sleeper and early day trains but I do think they should consider dimming the lights in the seated sleeper. IIRC Strathclyde Buses used to dim the lights at night, long time ago. IC trains in general could do with doing the same in my view.

IC trains used to, e.g. Mk3s as built had lighting controls in the vestibules, and earlier than that you could control the lighting yourself in some compartment stock.

Dentist's surgery style lighting might be appropriate on a local commuter train (but even there I'd tone it down from the current fashion), but it's annoying on a journey of any distance.

The Pendolino's possibly the only modern train where lighting has been done well.

 

[TimboM]

5Z11 0930 Polmadie-Wembley running tomorrow to reposition the Glasgow portion for tomorrow night’s service.

Oh, and 73/9s regularly work Load 6 trains on the WHL without any bother and keep to the timings. The “record” I’m aware of so far for a single 73/9 is a Load 8 rake + 2x 92s (an extra 252 tonnes or about 6 extra coaches worth)... underpowered??!

They do occasionally (and it is occasionally) break down, like any other loco. Unfortunately last night was in one of the most remote places on the UK network.

 

[ainsworth74]

IC trains used to, e.g. Mk3s as built had lighting controls in the vestibules, and earlier than that you could control the lighting yourself in some compartment stock.

Weren't those lighting controls (at least on Mk3s) just "on" or "off" though? I'd suggest that we do need a dim setting (not just on the sleeper on but all trains!) but not sure we want no lights at all!

 

[ainsworth74]

Unfortunately last night was in one of the most remote places on the UK network.

Plus unless I'm wide of the mark (so open to correction) the only available rescue locomotive was itself not at 100% (not all traction motors working I believe) which was far from ideal.

 

[GrimShady]

Or you just have nice subdued lighting anyway, e.g. Pendolinos. Or, to be a bit more on topic, the Riviera seated coaches, which have very stylish LED lighting. As I said some don't like the seats but the Riviera refurb really is a superb quality job.

Pendolinos

The do have reasonably good lighting I must admit.

Why did CS go for the crap seats? I can't imagine anyone getting sleep in those things. Seats in the current MK2 I imagine are far nicer. (I haven't tried the Mk5 yet)

 

[_toommm_]

Pendolinos

The do have reasonably good lighting I must admit.

Why did CS go for the crap seats? I can't imagine anyone getting sleep in those things. Seats in the current MK2 I imagine are far nicer. (I haven't tried the Mk5 yet)

MK2 seats are great - very plush, even if you sit next to someone.

 

[trebor79]

Weren't those lighting controls (at least on Mk3s) just "on" or "off" though? I'd suggest that we do need a dim setting (not just on the sleeper on but all trains!) but not sure we want no lights at all!

"On" and "dim" I seem to recall.

Once sat in a dark, freezing cold MK2 from somewhere in the middle of the country to Durham. I think a friend and I were returning from a visit to Oxford university. Guard made announcements apologising for the dead coach and advising people say in one of the others, plenty of seats. Didn't prevent us sitting there though, just made sure we were ok. We enjoyed it, got a better view at night (periodically scraping our frosted breath off the window) and it kept the beers we were drinking nice and cold too .
And actually there was plenty of light from outside, even in deepest countryside to see when one of us needed to wander to the lav.

 

[ainsworth74]

"On" and "dim" I seem to recall.

Oh yes you're probably right now I think about it. Not that I pay great attention to the light switches!

"
Once sat in a dark, freezing cold MK2 from somewhere in the middle of the country to Durham. I think a friend and I were returning from a visit to Oxford university. Guard made announcements apologising for the dead coach and advising people say in one of the others, plenty of seats. Didn't prevent us sitting there though, just made sure we were ok. We enjoyed it, got a better view at night (periodically scraping our frosted breath off the window) and it kept the beers we were drinking nice and cold too .

I was once on a dead Mk3 between Inverness and Edinburgh (where we all got turfed off as I get the impression most of the rest of the HST was equally knackered!) but sadly that was in day light as it was high summer.

I do think that it's something that the falls (outside of the sleeper) into the "nice to have" category rather than "vital" but not having a dimmed lights at night time is something of a flaw on rolling stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Weren't those lighting controls (at least on Mk3s) just "on" or "off" though? I'd suggest that we do need a dim setting (not just on the sleeper on but all trains!) but not sure we want no lights at all!

No, they were "bright" and "dim". "Dim" turned off something like every third tube.

Even in the original Mk3 days, that meant "dentist's chair" and "acceptable", though (and I sometimes used to be a bit naughty and switch them myself on evening trains, guards would sometimes put them back but usually not). People who curse GWR's nasty interior lighting forget that BR's was pretty nasty too - though at least warm white.

 

[GrimShady]

Oh yes you're probably right now I think about it. Not that I pay great attention to the light switches!



I was once on a dead Mk3 between Inverness and Edinburgh (where we all got turfed off as I get the impression most of the rest of the HST was equally knackered!) but sadly that was in day light as it was high summer.

I do think that it's something that the falls (outside of the sleeper) into the "nice to have" category rather than "vital" but not having a dimmed lights at night time is something of a flaw on rolling stock.

I once had a dead MK3 complete with the occasional disco lights. Loved every minute of it! I could watch the scenery mid winter even in almost complete darkness outside. I had the entire coach to myself. Wonderful journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I once had a dead MK3 complete with the occasional disco lights. Loved every minute of it! I could watch the scenery mid winter even in almost complete darkness outside. I had the entire coach to myself. Wonderful journey.

I used to seek those coaches out in WCML Mk3 formations. Unlike now, no significant attempt was made to remove people from them. Some guards would ask you to move but when nobody did would just give up.

 

[awsnews]

Possibly (I don’t know so don’t quote me) the stock for 1Y11 is being brought up from
Polmadie to the WHL so Dumbarton seems the most convenient staffed station (with a car park on a major road?) for a coach to meet the train. It’s hardly ideal, to say the least, but better than nothing.

Dumbarton is not the best of places for a coach transfer as there isn't a car park at all, although at that time the street outside will be pretty empty. It doesn't give much time for boarding though as the first services to Balloch and Helensburgh are not far behind it. Using platform 3 isn't an option either as it will be occupied as well. The waiting room/booking office are also on the other platform so not much use either.

 

[westcoaster]

Anyone know why it took 8+ hours for a replacement loco to arrive. Did the driver have to walk out then taxi to said loco.

 

[Brissle Girl]

According to RTT it’s just departed Arrochar & Tarbet running 663 late:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G65048/2019/06/28/advanced

11 hrs late. Is that the latest train ever reported on real-time trains?

 

[158820]

Anyone know why it took 8+ hours for a replacement loco to arrive. Did the driver have to walk out then taxi to said loco.

According to reports on another forum the replacement loco had to be fuelled before departing and the driver could only take it so far where it met with the driver of 1b01
Also as mentioned above said thunderbird was lacking a full compliment of traction motors