Could someone from the South tell me whether 4 coaches are ever really needed for the Brockenhurst to Lymington shuttle? Or is just an example of geographical featherbedding?
ECML electrification too.
And upgrade of most of the A1 (to the south) as motorway.
Then surely the answer is to move stock around so there is shorter stock based nearby!?If geographical featherbedding is that the area runs a large fleet of 4-car EMUs with nothing shorter based nearby, then yes. The branch ran a 2-car DMU for a while and many here moaned about that.
When it was a 158 I don’t recall reading any comments about overcrowding, so presumably the answer to the question is no it’s not that busy. Certainly when I’ve used it at what would be peak times elsewhere its never been close to being overcrowded.
Why though? It’s a huge amount of effort to gain what exactly? Not annoying Northeners isn’t a valid reason to use the most practical unit for the line, and SWRs only 2 car EMUs are all fully accounted for anyway.Then surely the answer is to move stock around so there is shorter stock based nearby!?
Why though? It’s a huge amount of effort to gain what exactly? Not annoying Northeners isn’t a valid reason to use the most practical unit for the line, and SWRs only 2 car EMUs are all fully accounted for anyway.
Yep and I'm sure peak hour commuters into Manchester and Leeds crammed into 2 cars will buy this argument.
As ever, there is always a reason why the South should have it all.
Ah yes, that 750V DC unit could be very useful in Manchester and Leeds couldn’t it.Yep and I'm sure peak hour commuters into Manchester and Leeds crammed into 2 cars will buy this argument.
As ever, there is always a reason why the South should have it all.
SecondedPlease explain how it would make any economic sense to have one or two 2 car units in an otherwise universal 4 car area?
The North(TM) is going to be doing well for new, longer trains very soon...starting Monday in fact.
Even I know that you cannot transfer the carriages currently carrying fresh air from Brockenhurst to Manchester but the point is why is there a default assumption of minimum 4 cars in the South?Ah yes, that 750V DC unit could be very useful in Manchester and Leeds couldn’t it.
Seconded
It’s by far not a default, as the people of plenty of places in the South will tell you, Salisbury, Southampton, Bristol and more have 2 car services. However due the way SWRs fleet is organised it would be very silly not to put 4 cars on the branch.Even I know that you cannot transfer the carriages currently carrying fresh air from Brockenhurst to Manchester but the point is why is there a default assumption of minimum 4 cars in the South?
Someone tell me otherwise but the new trains arriving on Northern don't have a default of 4 cars minimum do they?
Could someone from the South tell me whether 4 coaches are ever really needed for the Brockenhurst to Lymington shuttle? Or is just an example of geographical featherbedding?
I think you would find that 12-car trains would be full and standing (well-filled anyway) a lot of the time if they were in use on a half-hourly schedule between Manchester and Leeds. The overcrowding on the current 3-cars running about 4 times an hour have really suppressed demand. In fact I avoid the route if at all possible, having been left behind more than once - and this on an inter-city journey with connections to make further down the line.On your second point, there are fewer passengers using services in the North, very few need 12 carriages, although I agree that new 2 car units are silly.
How often does that happen in the south east?
Can you imagine the DfT agreeing a routine surplus of coaches (4-car instead of 2 or 3) for anywhere outside the London commuter belt on the same basis? (Chiltern excepted)Like St Albans which doesn't need a 4-car EMU either, it's simply because you don't, in the South East, tend to get EMUs shorter than 4 cars, and having an odd unit in the fleet specifically to run it costs far more than running a pointlessly long train.
If it was DMU-land, St Albans and Lymington would probably be a 153, 150 or Pacer.
It's only a "default assumption" in the sense that most of the SE mainlines are based on 4, 8 and 12 car formations of 20m stock, and having something different just complicates it, which is costly in itself. If you go to, say, Chiltern-land, you do get 2-car formations at very quiet times because their fleet is based around 2 and 3-car 23m DMUs.
Ah yes, that 750V DC unit could be very useful in Manchester and Leeds couldn’t it.
But how many of them are trying to make long-distance journeys (with connections) rather than just wanting to get a train a few stops down the line? I guess the Clapham Jct problem is only on up trains into London... How long is it before the next one?People being left behind? At somewhere like Clapham Junction many, many times a day, not to mention all over LU.
That said, TPE is a problem (and I too avoid it other than at quiet times of day) - I remain unconvinced that even the fleet on order will be enough to solve the issue, and think they will need to extend everything to 7-car at least in time.
Can you imagine the DfT agreeing a routine surplus of coaches (4-car instead of 2 or 3) for anywhere outside the London commuter belt on the same basis? (Chiltern excepted)
But how many of them are trying to make long-distance journeys (with connections) rather than just wanting to get a train a few stops down the line? I guess the Clapham Jct problem is only on up trains into London... How long is it before the next one?
Of course a mid-evening train into the city centre is quiet. Can you report on the 10 or 11pm back out? One of the pleasures of travelling within Yorkshire is that 20 years ago they somehow had a tier of local government doing transport planning which thumbed its nose at Whitehall and bought what they needed for their services.Yes, I can. Why would they not? It costs more to have and maintain a dedicated set of shorter units in a homogeneous fleet of 4-car sets than it costs to carry a bit of fresh air around. Indeed they used to have dedicated EMUs for it - the old slamdoor sets - and got rid for that precise reason!
I'm sure if you use the 4-car EMU services that presently operate around the North there are quite a few of them that are decidedly quiet in the evenings. I took a Class 321 from Shipley to Leeds the other week, this was about 7pm so well against any flow, and there were about 4 people on it. Should they have pratted around digging out a 153 for us, or were they actually more sensible using the same unit they use all the time for simplicity?
Of course a mid-evening train into the city centre is quiet. Can you report on the 10 or 11pm back out?
That’s not the point, the overall passenger miles per person, I think I recall, are lower. But also, the SWR franchise, along with LNER are the only ones that make money overall, which partially explains the shorter trains for a northern, there’s less justification for longer ones as they wouldn’t make any money.On your second point, there are fewer passengers using services in the North
Annual passenger journeys (from Wiki)
Bournemouth (as example) 2.7m
Huddersfield (as example) 5.1m
That’s not the point, the overall passenger miles per person, I think I recall, are lower. But also, the SWR franchise, along with LNER are the only ones that make money overall, which partially explains the shorter trains for a northern
That’s not the point, the overall passenger miles per person, I think I recall, are lower. But also, the SWR franchise, along with LNER are the only ones that make money overall, which partially explains the shorter trains for a northern, there’s less justification for longer ones as they wouldn’t make any money.
On that point, Dorchester West gets 138,000 passengers per year and 8tpd, Staveley gets an hourly service for 40,000 uses. You can pick individual example all you like but they aren’t very useful.
But Bournemouth and Huddersfield have almost identical populations. Given that that Huddersfield has nearly twice as many users than Bournemouth with the same population, the idea that the South is a greater user of rail and therefore deserves all this extra shiny stuff sounds fanciful.
Shiny-as in during the middle of the day you can actually find a seat. In fact between Southampton and Bournemouth you could pretty much choose your own carriageWhat "extra shiny stuff"? Class 450s are how old now - 10 years? St Albans uses 319s which are, what, 30-40 years old?
Compare that to Huddersfield, which will be getting "extra shiny stuff" pretty soon.
Please explain in some detail how reducing the number of coaches in trains between Brockenhust and Lymington will help "peak hour commuters into Manchester and Leeds crammed into 2 cars"Yep and I'm sure peak hour commuters into Manchester and Leeds crammed into 2 cars will buy this argument.
As ever, there is always a reason why the South should have it all.
Bournemouth and Huddersfield do have similar populations, but Huddersfield is actually far better served, with 10tph, compared to Bournemouth's 4tph, who would've guessed that when there are more trains more people would use them!But Bournemouth and Huddersfield have almost identical populations. Given that that Huddersfield has nearly twice as many users than Bournemouth with the same population, the idea that the South is a greater user of rail and therefore deserves all this extra shiny stuff sounds fanciful.
I'm not sure what trains you're travelling on between Bournemouth and Southampton but they're very different to the ones that I use!Shiny-as in during the middle of the day you can actually find a seat. In fact between Southampton and Bournemouth you could pretty much choose your own carriage
It won't. But it's a symptom of a longstanding situation where resource, jobs and money are thrown at one part of the country and not at another.Please explain in some detail how reducing the number of coaches in trains between Brockenhust and Lymington will help "peak hour commuters into Manchester and Leeds crammed into 2 cars"