Alternative route for HS2 phase 2 proposed with Manchester as through station

[Glen-Ped]

Leeds-London via Manchester is worth if the time are fast enough. Again like Newcastle, an uprated ECML will give similar times from London to Leeds as the current HS2.

The ECML handles half the traffic as the WCML. It is not full.

 

[6Gman]

Running NPR track right into Liverpool is also common sense as the large port needs more rail capacity to serve the north of England's industry.


All the above sound sensible and workable.

Sorry, you'll have to explain the connection between NPR going "right into Liverpool", Liverpool as a "large port" and "the north of England's industry".

 

[Glen-Ped]

The thing that so many people seem to miss with the change to integrate HS2 and NPR is that abolishing Phase 2b is going to mean that cross-Midlands travel remains as slow as it is at the moment. Admittedly, HS2's 'solution' to the Derby/Nottingham/Leicester conundrum is far from perfect, and I really think they should take another long, hard look at what they are doing if they don't make plans to link Toton station with anywhere else at least by light rail, but if nothing at all happens and the only upgrades is diverting trains into Moor Street via a new flyover at Bordesley then that is, frankly, a waste of time.

Also, if Phase 2b is "expensive" when it is mostly plain-ground running, just how ruinously expensive do you think NPR is going to be if it involves loads of tunnelling and buying up land in the centre of the North's biggest cities?

NPR and an uprated Birmingham Derby/Notts line will give excellent cross midland services. The eastern section of HS2 phase 2b can be replaced by uprating the MML and the ECML.

The Pennines has needed a long 'base' tunnel for around 130 years,as cross Pennine rail communication is dire. Now is the time to bore one, which will solve many problems. The cost is split between HS2 and NPR. The long eastern leg of HS2 being dropped will pay for most of it.

 

[6Gman]

Leeds-London via Manchester is worth if the time are fast enough. Again like Newcastle, an uprated ECML will give similar times from London to Leeds as the current HS2.

The ECML handles half the traffic as the WCML. It is not full.

Have you stood by the Welwyn Viaduct recently?

 

[6Gman]

NPR and an uprated Birmingham Derby/Notts line will give excellent cross midland services. The eastern section of HS2 phase 2b can be replaced by uprating the MML and the ECML.

The Pennines has needed a long 'base' tunnel for around 130 years,as cross Pennine rail communication is dire. Now is the time to bore one, which will solve many problems. The cost is split between HS2 and NPR. The long eastern leg of HS2 being dropped will pay for most of it.

Where would you place it?

How do you satisfy the competing claims of Sheffield, Leeds, Bradford etc?

 

[Esker-pades]

Have you stood by the Welwyn Viaduct recently?

I shifted my response to this to the main HS2 discussion thread as it is not about the specific proposal covered by this thread.

 

[Glen-Ped]

Have you stood by the Welwyn Viaduct recently?

Two-track isn't it.

 

[Glen-Ped]

Sorry, you'll have to explain the connection between NPR going "right into Liverpool", Liverpool as a "large port" and "the north of England's industry".

You really should do some reading. Or are you serious?

 

[Glen-Ped]

Where would you place it?

How do you satisfy the competing claims of Sheffield, Leeds, Bradford etc?

The planners would work that out in detail. One suggestion is to emerge around Barnsley. My detailed suggestions are worthless.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

NPR and an uprated Birmingham Derby/Notts line will give excellent cross midland services

Really? How much faster than 125mph are you suggesting that services on the CrossCountry Main Line will get? And when will a direct link to Nottingham be instigated, to avoid the time-wasting reversal via Derby? Where such dramatic improvements are needed to compete better with other modes of transport and attract daytrippers and commuters, building a brand new line from scratch is the only sensible solution.

The Pennines has needed a long 'base' tunnel for around 130 years,as cross Pennine rail communication is dire.

The busiest part of the corridor, Manchester to Leeds, has never seen a better service. 6tph will trains at literally all hours of the day, most trains stopping only at Huddersfield. There are still a lot of improvements that can be made to the existing infrastructure before it reaches its natural limits.

Now is the time to bore one, which will solve many problems.

I'm not sure exactly how many problems it will really solve.

The long eastern leg of HS2 being dropped will pay for most of it.

Not really.

 

[Glen-Ped]

The times between Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds are appalling for such close cities. Hence NPR emerged.

A base Pennines tunnel will be a part of NPR, which is a goer, unlike HS2. NPR would also be a linear hub for the whole British network. A secondary would be the Derby/Notts-Birmingham line. These would also be excellent, fast, diversion lines.

 

[Glen-Ped]

Really? How much faster than 125mph are you suggesting that services on the CrossCountry Main Line will get?

The measure is times between cities.

 

[Bantamzen]

Where would you place it?

How do you satisfy the competing claims of Sheffield, Leeds, Bradford etc?

Coming from Manchester you couldn't satisfy all three, in fact realistically there would really only be Leeds that could be satisfied by a new Pennine alignment and even that is going to be a very expensive, and difficult challenge. Herein lies the thinking, if HS2b is considered expensive & politically challenging, a future government can propose the change to linking with NPR, then quietly shelve any portion beyond Manchester, citing financial, geological or environmental reasons, or a combination of any of the three.

If this option becomes the politically acceptable solution, I would wager that Yorkshire would see no part of a HS network this side of 2050.

 

[Glen-Ped]

Coming from Manchester you couldn't satisfy all three, in fact realistically there would really only be Leeds that could be satisfied by a new Pennine alignment

4-track it.

 

[Bantamzen]

4-track it.

That is at least partly planned for Huddersfield - Ravensthorpe on the classic alignment. However trying to service either Bradford or Sheffield from a Manchester originating alignment would be basically impossible, and will probably lead to both cities not being served by it. The geography & geology of the Pennines means that if you want high speed links coming east out of Greater Manchester, you'll need to bore tunnels as straight as possible, missing out as many of the towns along the way which reside in deep, meandering valleys, which are far from ideal for High Speed operations.

 

[Glen-Ped]

If this option becomes the politically acceptable solution, I would wager that Yorkshire would see no part of a HS network this side of 2050.

It is about time between cities, not labelling of trains. HS2 and NPR would merely enhance the existing Network, not operate in isolation.

That is at least partly planned for Huddersfield - Ravensthorpe on the classic alignment.

NPR will be a brand new line. The other cross Pennines lines really do not come into it.

 

[MarkyT]

... really think they should take another long, hard look at what they are doing if they don't make plans to link Toton station with anywhere else at least by light rail.

Which would be fairly easy and cheap to build across open fields from the current tram terminus. Extend a little further past the HS2 station and the tram could also serve central Long Eaton. There are intended to be classic network platforms on site too, so something must call. I'd suggest running Nottingham - Chesterfield services that way as well as Derby - Nottingham via a new south-east chord onto the Radford-Trowell line. Slightly longer in both cases, but worth it for the extra connectivity. Also anything terminating from the east at Nottingham could be extended to run in a loop via Toton and the new curve. The hub could become an important interchange and parkway access point for the classic network as well as for HS2. An alternative to the Trowell chord could be reversal of Derby trains at the south end of the new station but I'd not like to see Birmingham - Nottingham trains reverse twice in ten miles so perhaps that makes a new connection via Chadderton sidings desirable in Derby to avoid reversal there.

 

[Glen-Ped]

Which would be fairly easy and cheap to build across open fields from the current tram terminus.

Toton appears to be a waste of time as the focus is now on getting trains into city centres. Derby Notts would be better served by uprating the MML & Birmingham-Derby/Notts line.

 

[quantinghome]

Toton appears to be a waste of time as the focus is now on getting trains into city centres. Derby Notts would be better served by uprating the MML & Birmingham-Derby/Notts line.

You seem to be operating in an evidence-free environment. Merely stating something does not make it correct.

You're supportive of building new railway lines but against the HS2 eastern leg. Can you provide a bit more explanation as to why?

Welcome to the forum btw!

 

[Howardh]

Looking at those maps, the second in particular, if the line was Airport - Piccadilly - Leeds it COULD miss Piccadilly altogether if it used the Ardwick curve (disused now) and built a new station at Ardwick as Piccadilly (South or P 15/16) and connected using moving walkway or pods (as you do between the teminals at Gatwick, the length is similar). However the speed of the HST's would be reduced as it winds its way around eastern Manchester to Leeds on the current lines!!

But whatever - we MUST link Manchester and Heathrow airports and then we can reduce/dismiss the necessity for flights between.

 

[Glen-Ped]

You seem to be operating in an evidence-free environment. Merely stating something does not make it correct.

Thanks for the welcome. Derby and Notts have been critical of Toton being out of town. Sheffield insisted a classic line accessing their centre was preferable to an out of town HS2 station. They got it changed.

The HS2 eastern leg is not needed as the MML & ECML when uprated (they need uprating anyhow) gives similar services. What is important, and even Johnson emphasises this, is NPR. NPR is a goer. It is how it integrates with the rest of the network whether HS2 is there or not. Johnson may can the lot of HS2. HS2 is immensely unpopular, that is clear to see.

 

[MarkyT]

But whatever - we MUST link Manchester and Heathrow airports and then we can reduce/dismiss the necessity for flights between.

Dedicated direct trains from the north into Heathrow airport is wasteful of paths, which is why the branch was dropped. All trains calling at Old Oak Common means EVERY train to London will be a Heathrow train however, via the fast and frequent Crossrail and Heathrow Express connections. The journey time improvements are likely to abstract a very large proportion of domestic air traffic anyway, which of course is why certain vested interests are implacably, if not openly, opposed to the scheme.

 

[Glen-Ped]

Looking at those maps, the second in particular, if the line was Airport - Piccadilly - Leeds it COULD miss Piccadilly altogether if it used the Ardwick curve (disused now) and built a new station at Ardwick as Piccadilly (South or P 15/16) and connected using moving walkway or pods (as you do between the teminals at Gatwick, the length is similar). However the speed of the HST's would be reduced as it winds its way around eastern Manchester to Leeds on the current lines!!

But whatever - we MUST link Manchester and Heathrow airports and then we can reduce/dismiss the necessity for flights between.

You are assuming Heathrow will still be operational in 15-20 years time. Inland airports are an environmental disaster. Having planes fly over large estuaries is far better all around.

NPR and HS2 2b are to be integrated in design. That most certainly will not be via the planned skewed S bend alignment around Tatton. The best is a more direct line from Liverpool through Manchester and that may mean the Mersey corridor, which was the original plan. So Victoria may be the big through station of Manchester. All up in the air.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But whatever - we MUST link Manchester and Heathrow airports and then we can reduce/dismiss the necessity for flights between.

The main issue here is risk to the journey from missed connections. If a railway "codeshare" plus a dedicated connecting coach existed, you could make serious inroads into it now.

 

[mmh]

Looking at those maps, the second in particular, if the line was Airport - Piccadilly - Leeds it COULD miss Piccadilly altogether if it used the Ardwick curve (disused now) and built a new station at Ardwick as Piccadilly (South or P 15/16) and connected using moving walkway or pods (as you do between the teminals at Gatwick, the length is similar). However the speed of the HST's would be reduced as it winds its way around eastern Manchester to Leeds on the current lines!!

But whatever - we MUST link Manchester and Heathrow airports and then we can reduce/dismiss the necessity for flights between.

If you're connecting at Heathrow to a long haul flight, travelling

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are assuming Heathrow will still be operational in 15-20 years time. Inland airports are an environmental disaster. Having planes fly over large estuaries is far better all around.

Bozzaport? Not happening.

 

[Glen-Ped]

Bozzaport? Not happening.

All is up in the air. Johnson, who looks to be the next PM may can Heathrow. His views are well known.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

All is up in the air. Johnson, who looks to be the next PM may can Heathrow. His views are well known.

Can Heathrow and pay however many tens of billions in compensation to HAL?

 

[si404]

NPR will only get built off the back of the success of the eastern leg of HS2 (which has the best business case as its some of the cheapest construction and brings whole new areas of benefits) - otherwise it's all "well you can just upgrade the classic line" or "the existing services are fine".

The change of game that HS2 phase 2E brings to the M1 corridor will provide the political capital to make sure the M62 corridor gets a similar new line. Ditching the M1 corridor line as too expensive (and then spending as much, if not more, killing regional service on the intercity lines to try and replicate the capacity and speed benefits) and proposing serving Leeds via a more expensive tunneled route via Manchester kills HS2 north of Crewe - if the eastern leg was too expensive, then the transpennine leg definitely is!

Keep HS2 and NPR separate projects that form a network. Don't kill two birds by smushing them together into one.

PS: if Newcastle-London would be via upgraded ECML as quicker, surely London-Leeds would be too? Why bother with the Manchester-Leeds bit of HS2 in that case?

 

[Glen-Ped]

Airports are long term. Heathrow, Manchester and Gatwick airports are environmental disasters. In the 1960s it proposed to move it to the Thames estuary or Cublington in Bucks between Milton Keynes and Aylesbury. Cublington was to have 4 runways. Thank God Cublington was shelved.