• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
More likely that there will be derogation to keep pacers in service until replacement stock is ready.
Given how many TOCs will need this derogation - Southern, Scotrail, Greater Anglia, Northern, Southeastern and Transport for Wales to name a few, the entire UK rail network will come to a halt in the new year unless a mass derogation is provided. I think one being granted is pretty much a certainty at this point or there'll be chaos.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,191
Location
St Albans
Given how many TOCs will need this derogation - Southern, Scotrail, Greater Anglia, Northern, Southeastern and Transport for Wales to name a few, the entire UK rail network will come to a halt in the new year unless a mass derogation is provided. I think one being granted is pretty much a certainty at this point or there'll be chaos.
Do Southern, Greater Anglia and Southeastern run pacers?
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
Do Southern, Greater Anglia and Southeastern run pacers?
No but from what I can gather they'll all be running non-PRM compliant stock at the turn of the new year (455s, 321s and 466s respectively) - I don't see why they wouldn't be, but I'm sure I keep hearing the 466s aren't being modified - no idea why, I could be wrong about that one.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,972
With the delays to the 769s and the requirement to remove the Pacers etc at the end of the year is the course now set for another chaotic period around the New Year? Also even if these and the new stock come into service before then will the training period be compressed taking staff away from normal operations causing problems before the New Year?

More likely that there will be derogation to keep pacers in service until replacement stock is ready.

If the first batch of 195s enter service in a weeks time as planned then its likely enough 195s will enter service over the next 6 months to run all or most of the planned services at the next timetable change. If the 769s are not ready by December the more obvious option for derogations would be 153s instead of pacers. Northern how have 20 which would mean they would be 12 coaches short which could be spread over a large number of routes.
 

Energy

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2018
Messages
4,420
No but from what I can gather they'll all be running non-PRM compliant stock at the turn of the new year (455s, 321s and 466s respectively) - I don't see why they wouldn't be, but I'm sure I keep hearing the 466s aren't being modified - no idea why, I could be wrong about that one.
Could Greater Anglia keep the 360s a bit longer? The new east midlands franchise uses them but they will only be used when Corby has been electrified. Going back onto topic they could be used on northern until the 769s arrive if there are any routes which have electrification or currently running diesel trains under wires, in this case the diesel trains can be used on routes which arent electrified or half electrified and the 360s taking over route they were on until the 769s return. But this would be complicated and being northern I wouldn't be suprised if they put 150s on the 769 routes temporarily.
 

ed1971

Member
Joined
14 Jan 2009
Messages
589
Location
Wigan
If the first batch of 195s enter service in a weeks time as planned then its likely enough 195s will enter service over the next 6 months to run all or most of the planned services at the next timetable change. If the 769s are not ready by December the more obvious option for derogations would be 153s instead of pacers. Northern how have 20 which would mean they would be 12 coaches short which could be spread over a large number of routes.

Remember though that 153s and 155s are not allowed through Wigan Wallgate. I once read that they would strike the platform edge.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,972
Remember though that 153s and 155s are not allowed through Wigan Wallgate. I once read that they would strike the platform edge.

There would be plenty of options for shuffling units around. It doesn't need to be a direct swap. Northern won't have to start implement contingency measures for a while yet.
 

_toommm_

Established Member
Joined
8 Jul 2017
Messages
5,843
Location
Yorkshire
Are the class 769's actually in service now, all seems to have gone very quiet?

Not in service yet. TfW which I believe has run under it's own power a handful of times in the Depot, but to my knowledge, that's about it to be honest.
 

86247

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
305
Location
clock face
surely the 769 project is dead in the water far to many problems northern should just order more 195s or 331s
 

geoffk

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
3,223
surely the 769 project is dead in the water far to many problems northern should just order more 195s or 331s
More electrification would remove the need for 769s but that isn't a short-term option. Does Northern have dmu duties which are all, or nearly all, under the wires? I think the additional peak Leeds - Doncaster journeys are diesel as the unit also runs on the Harrogate line, any others?
 

86247

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
305
Location
clock face
do caf build bi-modes not too familiar with them northern should say stop to these 769s too much money ploughed in to them more 331s will be the perfect answer for northern routes
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,810
Location
Sheffield
do caf build bi-modes not too familiar with them northern should say stop to these 769s too much money ploughed in to them more 331s will be the perfect answer for northern routes

That's as maybe, but presumably Northern have a contract for the supply of operational 769s. If they aren't delivered on time there will be penalties. Northern shouldn't be paying anything for trains they can't use, and should be able to claim for covering their absence.

If they find the units don't perform to specification when available that's also an issue they need to resolve with Porterbrook. Of course we don't know what's really going on. All is still speculation. The lack of hard news is inevitably a concern and using tried units instead must be a prudent contingency measure.
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
9,250
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
Surely the biggest question for the 769 program will be... Will GW Ever see its share? Considering the GW ones are to be Tri-Mode, this will potentially add more complications to the program - and that's without the TOC specific interior with it's Air Cooling etc. At least the Northern issues could be solved with either more 195s, a Bi Mode or rolling Electrification & 339s from CAF. Could further electrification & infill electrification + further use of the 387s work for GW?
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,191
Location
St Albans
Surely the biggest question for the 769 program will be... Will GW Ever see its share? Considering the GW ones are to be Tri-Mode, this will potentially add more complications to the program - and that's without the TOC specific interior with it's Air Cooling etc. At least the Northern issues could be solved with either more 195s, a Bi Mode or rolling Electrification & 339s from CAF. Could further electrification & infill electrification + further use of the 387s work for GW?
Given Northern's already high subsidy, I doubt that there would be any support for yet more capital expenditure, especially on new diesel trains that would need to be considered a 30+ year investment.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
do caf build bi-modes not too familiar with them northern should say stop to these 769s too much money ploughed in to them more 331s will be the perfect answer for northern routes

Northern have more than enough EMUs and more can be cascaded if needed.
Any CAF bi-mode for the UK (I'm not sure they have anything suitable) would be 2-3 years away and need lengthy testing like the 195/331s.
Stadler build decent bi-modes, as at Greater Anglia (about to enter service).
I should think Northern will look there if they can afford any (which I doubt).
Meanwhile, the DfT will be exceedingly angry if the 769s don't work, as I believe they are footing most of the bill for the initial development.
The same people are working on hydrogen-powered options.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
Does Northern have dmu duties which are all, or nearly all, under the wires?

The Wigan North Western to Alderley Edge service, hourly for most of the day, 34m31ch in total, is under wires for all but the first 6m53ch. A slight complication is the fact that, at the moment, the service interworks with Wigan North Western to Stalybridge, but even that is itself under wires for approximately half its length.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,810
Location
Sheffield
I was going in Wikipedia which states they're in service from 2019.....

Wikipedia is only as good as the information people like us have input. It can be wrong and can sometimes be very wrong. 769s may yet be in service in 2019 so it may not be wrong in this case.

It's up to anyone registered on Wikipedia to add new information or correct errors. I've updated an entry elsewhere earlier today.
 

Cardiff123

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2013
Messages
1,318
Meanwhile, the DfT will be exceedingly angry if the 769s don't work, as I believe they are footing most of the bill for the initial development.
The same people are working on hydrogen-powered options.

Only a DfT with Chris Grayling at the helm would think that 769s and Hydro Flex 319s are viable options for the rail network.

The HydroFLEX has moved under its own power at Rail Live, so there is a proven working concept now.
769s have moved under their own power on the GCR as well.........
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,067
Wikipedia is only as good as the information people like us have input. It can be wrong and can sometimes be very wrong. 769s may yet be in service in 2019 so it may not be wrong in this case.
Yeah, right!

The HydroFLEX has moved under its own power at Rail Live, so there is a proven working concept now.
The 769s have moved quite a lot on the GCR, but I bet no-one is putting any money on them entering passenger service in 2019! The 2 units at Allerton haven't turned a wheel yet, so what chance of the fleet (?) entering service in the next 5 months?
 

js1000

Member
Joined
14 Jun 2014
Messages
1,011
surely the 769 project is dead in the water far to many problems northern should just order more 195s or 331s
If we get to the end of the year and the 195s are well-received then there is every chance Northern and Eversholt will just order 8 195s units to make up for the 769 mess. To date passengers are happy (including myself and teething problems aside) and staff are enthused with the new units so every chance. Although I suspect the 195s will have to be bi-mode convertible in some way given the govt will probably ban diesel vehicles during the lifetime of the 195.
 

Top