Yes, the Buxton line is steeply graded. The summit is at Dove Holes. It's a stiff climb to Dove Holes from either side. I can't remember the figures but steeper than 1:100, on a curvy route and one that often has wet rails thanks to hill country weather. I think Pacers simply lack the traction to be reliable, so they're banned. I remember Pacers being tried on the Manchester-Glossop/Hadfield line when there was a shortage of EMUs once. Glossop is a bit like Buxton - a steep climb out of the terminus on curvy track, often wet. The Pacers couldn't cope, so they're banned from Glossop too, but as it's electrified that's not normally a limitation.
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Why do Pacers get allocated to the Hope Valley Stoppers?
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Yes, the Buxton line is steeply graded. The summit is at Dove Holes. It's a stiff climb to Dove Holes from either side. I can't remember the figures but steeper than 1:100, on a curvy route and one that often has wet rails thanks to hill country weather. I think Pacers simply lack the traction to be reliable, so they're banned. I remember Pacers being tried on the Manchester-Glossop/Hadfield line when there was a shortage of EMUs once. Glossop is a bit like Buxton - a steep climb out of the terminus on curvy track, often wet. The Pacers couldn't cope, so they're banned from Glossop too, but as it's electrified that's not normally a limitation.
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Which route do you think the Pacers should be allocated to instead though?
The Hope Valley line stations have an average annual patronage of about 60k.
I was on a Pacer from Manchester Piccadilly (originally from Southport) to Alderley Edge under the wires the other evening and serving stations such as Heaton Chapel and Cheadle Hulme which have 800k+ passengers a year. That's insane.
randyrippley
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At least on that route you've the option to bail at Manchester. Morecambe to Leeds must be a blast on a 142 (yes I know technically you can change at Lancaster & Manchester)! I've never tried it myself, its on my 'to-do' list somewhere between walking over hot coals & hitting myself repeatedly with a frying pan...
Its actually quite a good trip, with some good views and last time I did it the ride was OK
Nice round trip if you return via Blackburn / Preston
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's only because the ridiculous idea of a Southport to Alderley Edge service is a thing. The north WCML needs serving with EMUs, 323s ideally. Southport services need sending somewhere else or terminating at Picc in the reversing siding (which I believe is now spare now ATW operate to the Airport).
Keep the diesels on the diesel lines.
It is a stupid situation. Passengers on the electrified lines south of Manchester to Alderley Edge must have a heart attack when one of these turns up. I hope the Southport to Alderley Edge service is revised once the new 769s are in operation and something more logical can be conjured up.
There is no capacity in the engine sidings at Piccadilly.
In fact, I couldn't think of a sillier idea than terminating a Southport/alderley edge service at Piccadilly. It's already clogged up.
And that's considering their aren't that many Southport/alderley edge services. Most are Wigan North Western - alderley edge via Bolton.
The crayons are strong here - but practically it's the most logical to leave it alone. That service ticks numerous boxes with regards to the plan for extra services. Killing it at Piccadilly is a bad option. Routing it to Victoria is a slightly worse option.
In fact, I couldn't think of a sillier idea than terminating a Southport/alderley edge service at Piccadilly. It's already clogged up.
And that's considering their aren't that many Southport/alderley edge services. Most are Wigan North Western - alderley edge via Bolton.
The crayons are strong here - but practically it's the most logical to leave it alone. That service ticks numerous boxes with regards to the plan for extra services. Killing it at Piccadilly is a bad option. Routing it to Victoria is a slightly worse option.
Mayfield Loop hardly ever seems empty at the moment - it might not have much booked use, but it gets plenty of use from Airport services being turned back. Even when that issue is (hopefully) sorted, it's still a useful hidey-hole but rather inconvenient to access (finding a path between Down trains, which have to be held back before Ardwick Jn whilst one's going in here).
There's no access to/from the engine siding from 13/14 either.
There's no access to/from the engine siding from 13/14 either.
TrainTube
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Visiting the peak district a year ago it was always sprinters on the line, how times of changed it seems. From Warrington, cant wait in a few years after the new northern connect network takes off.
Interesting you note that, you clearly get out there more often than me, but it's been quite some time since I've seen a 142 operating the Hope Valley. I'm not sure I've seen one since the May TT change, and yet I've seen 15-20 150s running services, made up of /1s, /2s and the odd ex-FGW one, but a glorious lack of pacers for me anyway!
I very rarely used to see them either, and I was on that route 6 days a week from Piccadilly to Sheffield. Like you said, ever since the TT change it was filled more with Sprinters
It wasn’t particularly a complaint I just noticed that it was mainly pacer (well it is at weekday rush hour in my experience) so wondered if there was a particular operational reason. The previous line I used to travel on was a whole array of different Pacers and sprinters.
Whistler40145
Established Member
I've done Leeds to Blackpool North on a Pacer
Killingworth
Established Member
Having observed that the Hope Valley line was largely being served by 150s recently, today we got 142 Pacers, including one unit that was trundling along on one engine. It made it to Sheffield only 9 minutes late at 7.05; http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y63059/2019/07/08/advanced and seems to have limped back to arrive at Piccadilly at 8.36 only 8 minutes late; http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y63030/2019/07/08/advanced
It seems to have ventured out again as; http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y63038/2019/07/08/advanced reaching Sheffield 18 minutes late at 10.23. It was then on its last legs, reaching New Mills 47 minutes late where it was put out of it's misery. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y63040/2019/07/08/advanced
This evening a double Pacer was seen 142060 and 142028, rear unit locked out.
It seems to have ventured out again as; http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y63038/2019/07/08/advanced reaching Sheffield 18 minutes late at 10.23. It was then on its last legs, reaching New Mills 47 minutes late where it was put out of it's misery. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y63040/2019/07/08/advanced
This evening a double Pacer was seen 142060 and 142028, rear unit locked out.
A bit off topic, but I do like the look of that shelter, and the fact that they've moved the TVM from its old place right at the entrance to somewhere more dry
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
...so you don't notice it when walking into the station for the first time, board and get PFed. Great idea.
Northern don't think anything through, do they? Bet there's no signage pointing it out either.
As for the topic of the thread, I like Pacers on the Hope Valley stoppers, the view is excellent.
Killingworth
Established Member
You're right, as always the devil is in the detail. I gather nobody had responsibility for new signage, but as few even get to see a guard on the train let alone get asked to see a ticket I doubt many have been threatened with a Penalty fare. The only station that's gated for Northern trains is Piccadilly. But revenue protection, or lack of it, on this line could generate a very long thread.
Well, judging by my experience on the route, a double unit is something to celebrate.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not if one is locked OOU (short platforms?)
Oh yes. Was this the case here ?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's OT for this thread, but just to confirm that there was an issue at Croston, where the TVM was installed (with no signage whatsoever, nor anything else about things having changed) then the inspectors at Preston on the P1/2 bridge immediately started PFing. I understand the PFs are being appealed with the assistance of OPSTA (because they were issued before the line has been officially designated as a PF route) but it is still not on and typically Northern.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The original post seems to say so?
Oh yes, hadn't noticed that. Disappointing really.
Killingworth
Established Member
West bound 4 carriage trains are too long for Hathersage in particular. Grindleford and Hope are also too short, but there's old platform currently out of use so not such an issue. All three are due to be lengthened by November, see; https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...orth-of-england-platform-extension-programme/
I used to get the last Hope Valley stopper from Sheffield to Manchester on Saturday nights
When it was a Pacer, the fastest part of the journey seemed to be beyond Edale towards Cowburn Tunnel.
It used to be routed via Disley Tunnel which was also a fast stretch but I believe it now goes via New Mills and Romiley.
When it was a Pacer, the fastest part of the journey seemed to be beyond Edale towards Cowburn Tunnel.
It used to be routed via Disley Tunnel which was also a fast stretch but I believe it now goes via New Mills and Romiley.
Killingworth
Established Member
The 23.27 from Sheffield is routed via Stockport. I'd doubt there'd be much custom after midnight from Chinley into Manchester so running fast makes sense and provides diversionary route knowledge for crews.
Iskra
Established Member
I actually prefer 142's to the cramped 150's on the route. I usually use it end to end on Northern Day Rangers and the pacers are actually more comfortable than a Northern 150. The big windows are beneficial too. Of course, I would prefer a 156 which I have had on the route recently.
I think we'll all miss the sounds of rackety pacers charging through glorious countryside on a warm summers eve. If you come on to rail uk in 2050 we'll all be reminiscing about them.
Also, despite being a Sheffield-Manchester service, the Northern service is essentially providing a local service into Manchester and Sheffield at each end, plus a few between rural stations in the middle. A pacer is appropriate for that service.
I think we'll all miss the sounds of rackety pacers charging through glorious countryside on a warm summers eve. If you come on to rail uk in 2050 we'll all be reminiscing about them.
Also, despite being a Sheffield-Manchester service, the Northern service is essentially providing a local service into Manchester and Sheffield at each end, plus a few between rural stations in the middle. A pacer is appropriate for that service.
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Killingworth
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T
The monthly Folk Train from Sheffield to Edale is usually a double Pacer with both available, even a 150 + Pacer,but nobody leaves or joins the rear unit at Hathersage.
The monthly Folk Train from Sheffield to Edale is usually a double Pacer with both available, even a 150 + Pacer,but nobody leaves or joins the rear unit at Hathersage.
One has to wonder at the inconsistency of it all, particularly when you're paying to run two units on the route, but still making your passengers stand.
Does it have anything to do with guards, maybe two are needed to run with both sets in use? Certainly TPE were running 6 car with the back set out of use and the front fairly well loaded on Sunday, presumably because they don’t have two guards to deal with the short platforms?
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