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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

Bletchleyite

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It's also worth noting that while the 230s are in service they are still suffering reliability issues with the gensets on a near-daily basis - the number of breakdowns are far in excess of what anyone would tolerate with a new car, van, lorry or bus. I suspect these will end up being replaced with the new style gensets to solve the issue, which is going to cost Vivarail a quid or 4.

If there weren't 3 of them I suspect the Marston Vale would be unusably unreliable.
 
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Greybeard33

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On topic the attraction of 769 ought to be a lot of commonality with 319s. Although a new order for bimodes is attractive it would mean more fragmentation of the fleet.
However, there have been rumours on other threads that Northern is negotiating with Porterbrook to swap its 319s for ex-WMT 323s, when the latter go off lease. In which case the commonality would be lost.
 

The Ham

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The 769s were a great idea on paper - if they had worked then it could have been transformative - almost a hundred bi-mode trains capable of working like a 150 or like a 100mph EMU - they'd have ticked a lot of boxes - they'd have been brilliant. But they haven't worked, and we really need to be considering what "Plan B" is going to be.

Weren't they Plan B anyway after electrification was cut back.

That was a foolish thing to do given that there were no units in existence when it was announced, it now looks even more foolish.

Short of the 769's coming into service soon or a new order for a new train, how quickly could the electrification projects be restarted to a point where more EMU's could be brought into service.
 

samuelmorris

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Weren't they Plan B anyway after electrification was cut back.

That was a foolish thing to do given that there were no units in existence when it was announced, it now looks even more foolish.

Short of the 769's coming into service soon or a new order for a new train, how quickly could the electrification projects be restarted to a point where more EMU's could be brought into service.
Given the success (or lack thereof) of other electrification projects, I'd suggest 2025 at the earliest.
 

deltic08

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Given the success (or lack thereof) of other electrification projects, I'd suggest 2025 at the earliest.
Apart from GWML I would say the other electrification projects have been very successful. Manchester-Preston was a problem because of the collapse of the installation company and geological problems but other schemes have been very successful and on budget.
Edinburgh-Galashiels would be easy as it was built to overhead tolerances and further Greater Manchester services to Wigan and New Mills are crying out for wiring.
Before 2025 if the money, will are there and people pull their fingers out.
 

samuelmorris

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Apart from GWML I would say the other electrification projects have been very successful. Manchester-Preston was a problem because of the collapse of the installation company and geological problems but other schemes have been very successful and on budget.
Edinburgh-Galashiels would be easy as it was built to overhead tolerances and further Greater Manchester services to Wigan and New Mills are crying out for wiring.
Before 2025 if the money, will are there and people pull their fingers out.
Yes I'm not saying they were all done badly, but I don't think the political will is there currently.
 

a_c_skinner

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Weren't they Plan B anyway after electrification was cut back.

Yes, and had the franchise award been a few years later, esp. with the newer environmental concerns we now have, I've little doubt the order would have had a prominent bi-mode element.
 

edwin_m

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Yes I'm not saying they were all done badly, but I don't think the political will is there currently.
Government decision making is glacial enough at the best of times, let alone now when they are otherwise preoccupied. And this government is far more interested in political issue than listening to technical opinion. Not to mention that I saw Raab being tipped for transport secretary the other day, who could make Grayling seem like a teddy bear by comparison. So there is a big risk that just as things were coming right on electrification it will come to a halt and we will be climbing the learning curve again in a decade or so.
 

a_c_skinner

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government is far more interested in political issue than listening to technical opinion.
Exactly, which is why new trains are important but enough trains and the right trains are not. New trains are a headline that will attract voters even if they never travel by rail. Enough trains but older or refurbished won't hit the spot for voters but will for travellers. Ho hum.
 

Bikeman78

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However, there have been rumours on other threads that Northern is negotiating with Porterbrook to swap its 319s for ex-WMT 323s, when the latter go off lease. In which case the commonality would be lost.
What are the 331s for then?
 

edwin_m

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Yes I'm not saying they were all done badly, but I don't think the political will is there currently.

Source? I've seen no evidence of the UK government showing interest in resuming electrification, and even if the current lot did so they will be replaced by another lot (of the same or a different party) before long.
 

Non Multi

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Apart from GWML I would say the other electrification projects have been very successful. Manchester-Preston was a problem because of the collapse of the installation company and geological problems but other schemes have been very successful and on budget.
Edinburgh-Galashiels would be easy as it was built to overhead tolerances and further Greater Manchester services to Wigan and New Mills are crying out for wiring.
Before 2025 if the money, will are there and people pull their fingers out.
You've missed the recent London GOBLIN electrification which was could only be described as a fiasco. The money ran out wiring the GWML, so that project is incomplete, and that also helped kill the 'Electric Spine' project. Not to mention the major cutbacks on the MML electrification.
 

59CosG95

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Source? I've seen no evidence of the UK government showing interest in resuming electrification, and even if the current lot did so they will be replaced by another lot (of the same or a different party) before long.
I think @td97 was implying that the political will is present within the Commons (and maybe the Lords), but not necessarily within the current Gov't, and almost certainly not the DfT.
 

tbtc

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Apart from GWML I would say the other electrification projects have been very successful. Manchester-Preston was a problem because of the collapse of the installation company and geological problems but other schemes have been very successful and on budget.
Edinburgh-Galashiels would be easy as it was built to overhead tolerances and further Greater Manchester services to Wigan and New Mills are crying out for wiring.
Before 2025 if the money, will are there and people pull their fingers out.

You've missed the recent London GOBLIN electrification which was could only be described as a fiasco. The money ran out wiring the GWML, so that project is incomplete, and that also helped kill the 'Electric Spine' project. Not to mention the major cutbacks on the MML electrification.

See also the Walsall - Rugely line... the problems in the Central Belt too... pretty much every project has either been late/ overbudget/ descoped/ cancelled... five/ten years ago I was a big enthusiast for electrification but it's becoming harder and harder to justify (given how bad we are at actually doing it).

Much as I dislike Grayling, I can see why the guy pulled the plug on more schemes.
 

samuelmorris

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I think @td97 was implying that the political will is present within the Commons (and maybe the Lords), but not necessarily within the current Gov't, and almost certainly not the DfT.
Then it's not political will - the idea is the government as an entity need to be behind it, which as far as I can tell, they're not.

Electrification has been difficult to justify given how wrong it has gone, but the same is true of basically everything else in the industry, from timetables, to new rolling stock, to refurbishing rolling stock, to franchising, to changes in working practices (and the ensuing industrial action), electrification or grand new infrastructure projects like Crossrail. Everything in the rail industry is a calamity, so we may as well choose the calamities that, when "uncalamitated" will give us the biggest gain - in my mind, that is not Bimode trains, or 50-year old Sprinters still working in the 2030s when 323s and 365s have long been laid up, it's electrification, on a reasonably grand scale, and Crossrails 1 & 2, and HS2. Accept whatever you do will be overbudget and late, but get on with it regardless and we might start actually making some progress. Electric cars aren't really the long-term answer to climate change caused by transport, effective and clean public transport is. Driving an electric car to the station to board a 156 would leave you wondering...

That is, however, rather off-topic. In the context of the government's austerital attitude towards rail (and public transport in general) the 769 seemed like a fair compromise. I was all for it to begin with, but one does wonder, even though rail enthusiasts like to pry and ask questions when we don't hear of any progress for a couple of weeks on new projects, 9 months of radio silence is a bit much. Someone really ought to fess up and say what's going on by now - presumably the TOCs affected are doing, because if the 769s aren't coming, some alternative choices really need to be considered.
 

td97

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Source? I've seen no evidence of the UK government showing interest in resuming electrification, and even if the current lot did so they will be replaced by another lot (of the same or a different party) before long.
Waiting game. Just because it's not publicised across the media doesn't mean there's nothing happening in the background. Even with Grayling & Co. in charge of the DfT.
 

Killingworth

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Just by the way, have any more units been completed and deployed to TOCs? It seems to have gone very quiet on that front or have I missed them.?
 

a_c_skinner

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One of the mags reported another delivery to Cardiff only recently. However I do believe there is (or has been until very recently) something serious preventing these vehicles from working. Nothing else explains the expenditure of money with no returns.
 

59CosG95

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One of the mags reported another delivery to Cardiff only recently. However I do believe there is (or has been until very recently) something serious preventing these vehicles from working. Nothing else explains the expenditure of money with no returns.
Yes, 769008 was reported as having been dragged to Canton.
The *ahem* latest issue with the 769s is, as I understand it, the exhaust pipe (a different design to those fitted on the Class 150s) is allegedly out of gauge - which might be why 769424 has been at Doncaster for a good while now, and why there have been no further deliveries in recent weeks. Based on that information, I suspect 424 will be a testbed unit for a modified exhaust which doesn't foul any gauges (on the routes it's planned for at least!), with the rest of the already-converted 769s following later once the new design is proven. Further conversions will probably have the new "second revision" exhaust fitted as new.
 

a_c_skinner

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I could have learned metalwork, redesigned, made and fitted a new exhaust in the time they've had. Well not really but if that is the issue it is taking a very long time.
 

deltic08

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See also the Walsall - Rugely line... the problems in the Central Belt too... pretty much every project has either been late/ overbudget/ descoped/ cancelled... five/ten years ago I was a big enthusiast for electrification but it's becoming harder and harder to justify (given how bad we are at actually doing it).

Much as I dislike Grayling, I can see why the guy pulled the plug on more schemes.
but it was the disingenuous way he did it citing more ways trains could be propelled than electricity that are still light years away, including the 769s, instead of being honest and saying it was becoming too expensive to electrify and cheaper ways must be found to do it.
Electrification as such is not that expensive. It is route upgrading that goes hand in hand with electrification that makes it seem expensive.
 
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AlexNL

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but it was the disingenuous way he did it (...) instead of being honest and saying it was becoming too expensive to electrify and cheaper ways must be found to do it.
That's PR people at work for you.
 

Greybeard33

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I could have learned metalwork, redesigned, made and fitted a new exhaust in the time they've had. Well not really but if that is the issue it is taking a very long time.
Indeed. The exhaust issue was first reported on this forum more than three months ago. If this is really the only reason for the delay, the fix must have proved considerably more challenging than described in this post of 26 April upthread:
The necessary modification required is known and is being done at the build stage for units not yet delivered. The modification required is very slight; well within the capabilities of Canton and Allerton to exchange the parts necessary.
These Stage IIIB engines do have Selective Catalytic Reduction, which makes the exhaust system larger and more complex than for older diesels.
 

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