Theresa May Resigns & Conservative Leader Election Discussion

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Tories are talking about fox hunting again.

How many are there in this particular grouping?

 

[AM9]

How many are there in this particular grouping?

Usually about 10 twits in red jackets riding horses and 30 boisterous dogs running before them.

 

[Geezertronic]

Usually about 10 twits in red jackets riding horses and 30 boisterous dogs running before them.

I'd call them a lot worse than twits to be honest but I'd be banned. Plus they have their thugs alongside them

 

[dgl]

I'd call them a lot worse than twits to be honest but I'd be banned. Plus they have their thugs alongside them

..and destroy an awful lot of farmland in the process, the hunt used to cost my Grandad more in damages to fences and the like than the foxes ever did (in respect to the cost of replacing any chickens they got).

 

[DarloRich]

How many are there in this particular grouping?

One is one too many. This is 2019 not the 18th century . We should be beyond this kind of cruel stupidity.

 

[edwin_m]

So we are likely to see the return of McVey, Baker, Raab, Patel, & Heaton Harris; the retention of Leadsom, Fox and Grayling; and the inclusion of Francois, Fysh, even Dorries. Worrying indeed!

Anyone notice the strong correlation amongst politicians between supporting Brexit and being incompetent?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One is one too many. This is 2019 not the 18th century . We should be beyond this kind of cruel stupidity.

Cruel stupidity seems also to be a trait in those people who run the human slavery rackets in Britain, which I make no apologies for classifying higher that foxes (or hares in coursing).

Have you ever seen those animal charity advertisements on television where they attach human-type feelings such as love, etc, to animals. If animals indeed are possessed of such human-type feelings, then many of the predators who kill lesser animals should also be decried, but those animal charities when asked such comparative questions shy away from answering.

 

[DarloRich]

Cruel stupidity seems also to be a trait in those people who run the human slavery rackets in Britain, which I make no apologies for classifying higher that foxes (or hares in coursing).

Have you ever seen those animal charity advertisements on television where they attach human-type feelings such as love, etc, to animals. If animals indeed are possessed of such human-type feelings, then many of the predators who kill lesser animals should also be decried, but those animal charities when asked such comparative questions shy away from answering.

Eh? What on earth are you on about? Slavery?

If people want to kill foxes ( and I know many farmers who do) shoot them. Dont chase them on horseback and let a pack of dogs rip them apart.

The fact Tory boys obsess over this kind of silliness when there are at least 45677 ( one of them being modern day slavery!) more important issues to tackle in the country shows what sort of people they are.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Eh? What on earth are you on about? Slavery?.

You cited "cruel stupidity" as practiced by human beings in the 21st century respect of animals, yet when I cite "cruel stupidity" by human beings against other human beings which also actually occurs in 21st century human slavery practices today in Britain, you have the temerity to ask "What on earth are you on about".

 

[DarloRich]

You cited "cruel stupidity" as practiced by human beings in the 21st century respect of animals, yet when I cite "cruel stupidity" by human beings against other human beings which also actually occurs in 21st century human slavery practices today in Britain, you have the temerity to ask "What on earth are you on about".

Goodness me. Such whataboutery.

 

[Esker-pades]

Have you ever seen those animal charity advertisements on television where they attach human-type feelings such as love, etc, to animals. If animals indeed are possessed of such human-type feelings, then many of the predators who kill lesser animals should also be decried, but those animal charities when asked such comparative questions shy away from answering.

So many problems.

For a start, predators hunt out of necessity. A lion doesn't kill a warthog or antelope for fun. However, fox hunting is a sport done for fun. There is no necessity whatsoever.

Secondly, animals do have emotional capacity. There are numerous scientific studies to back this up. I've quoted the first one that came up when I searched though my university library.

Do elephants feel joy, chimpanzees grief and depression, and dogs happiness and dejection? People disagree about the nature of emotions in nonhuman animal beings (hereafter animals), especially concerning the question of whether any animals other than humans can feel emotions (Ekman 1998). Pythagoreans long ago believed that animals experience the same range of emotions as humans (Coates 1998), and current research provides compelling evidence that at least some animals likely feel a full range of emotions, including fear, joy, happiness, shame, embarrassment, resentment, jealousy, rage, anger, love, pleasure, compassion, respect, relief, disgust, sadness, despair, and grief (Skutch 1996, Poole 1996, 1998, Panksepp 1998, Archer 1999, Cabanac 1999, Bekoff 2000).

The expression of emotions in animals raises a number of stimulating and challenging questions to which relatively little systematic empirical research has been devoted, especially among free-ranging animals. Popular accounts (e.g., Masson and McCarthy's When Elephants Weep, 1995) have raised awareness of animal emotions, especially among nonscientists, and provided scientists with much useful information for further systematic research. Such books have also raised hackles among many scientists for being “too soft”—that is, too anecdotal, misleading, or sloppy (Fraser 1996). However, Burghardt (1997a), despite finding some areas of concern in Masson and McCarthy's book, wrote: “I predict that in a few years the phenomena described here will be confirmed, qualified, and extended” (p. 23). Fraser (1996) also noted that the book could serve as a useful source for motivating future systematic empirical research.

Researchers interested in exploring animal passions ask such questions as: Do animals experience emotions? What, if anything, do they feel? Is there a line that clearly separates those species that experience emotions from those that do not? Much current research follows Charles Darwin's (1872; see also Ekman 1998) lead, set forth in his book The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals. Darwin argued that there is continuity between the emotional lives of humans and those of other animals, and that the differences among many animals are in degree rather than in kind. In The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex, Darwin claimed that “the lower animals, like man, manifestly feel pleasure and pain, happiness, and misery” (p. 448).

Source: https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/50/10/861/233998

 

[SteveP29]

One is one too many. This is 2019 not the 18th century . We should be beyond this kind of cruel stupidity.

Is the correct answer.

If there is a fox problem, what is the most efficient way (time, energy and money wise) of ridding the countryside of them?

A gun, bang, gone (one person to feed, some ammunition and oils and cloths etc to clean the gun afterwards)

or

10 men, 10 horses, 20 beater type blokes and a pack of dogs (all need to be fed and watered etc)

Answers on a postcard please

 

[AlterEgo]

You cited "cruel stupidity" as practiced by human beings in the 21st century respect of animals, yet when I cite "cruel stupidity" by human beings against other human beings which also actually occurs in 21st century human slavery practices today in Britain, you have the temerity to ask "What on earth are you on about".

Here’s another take which is an order of magnitude more sane - human slavery and killing animals for fun are both bad things and it’s possible to tackle more than one thing at once.

 

[Mag_seven]

So it looks like Bojo's lack of support for our ambassador to the US has led to him (the ambassador) having to fall on his sword. I despair for what this country is going to become when this idiot gets elected as our PM without the say of 99.9% of us!

 

[Esker-pades]

So it looks like Bojo's lack of support for our ambassador to the US has led to him (the ambassador) having to fall on his sword. I despair for what this country is going to become when this idiot gets elected as our PM without the say of 99.9% of us!

Just under 0.25% of the population gets a say. 0.35% of the electorate gets a say.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just under 0.25% of the population gets a say. 0.35% of the electorate gets a say.

When was the last time that the total electorate were given the opportunity to vote in the election of the leader of any British political party without holding membership of the said political party?

 

[Adsy125]

When was the last time that the total electorate were given the opportunity to vote in the election of the leader of any British political party without holding membership of the said political party?

When was the last time a leader of a party that is going to make one of the biggest decisions for the country in history was not elected by the electorate? Brexit has been such a mess with Vote Leave's blatant cheating and lies, and everyone wanted a different thing when they voted to leave, now Boris is promising to take us on a no deal Brexit, which wasn't an option anyone voted for, without the approval of 100% of voters (to 2sf).

 

[bramling]

When was the last time a leader of a party that is going to make one of the biggest decisions for the country in history was not elected by the electorate? Brexit has been such a mess with Vote Leave's blatant cheating and lies, and everyone wanted a different thing when they voted to leave, now Boris is promising to take us on a no deal Brexit, which wasn't an option anyone voted for, without the approval of 100% of voters (to 2sf).

That’s the nature of our system. People have had many years to advocate a more presidential style system, yet clearly it’s not something which has gained salience with the electorate.

Having said that I’m not fully comfortable with such decisions being made by memberships. I’d be happier if it was left to MPs of the party concerned. Nonetheless this time round we’d still probably be getting Boris. I’m not sure we’d still have Corbyn though.

Personally I think there will still be some kind of rehash of May’s deal, but with a separate arrangement for NI. How the DUP will be squared remains to be seen - perhaps a referendum in NI only?

 

[krus_aragon]

When was the last time a leader of a party that is going to make one of the biggest decisions for the country in history was not elected by the electorate? Brexit has been such a mess with Vote Leave's blatant cheating and lies, and everyone wanted a different thing when they voted to leave, now Boris is promising to take us on a no deal Brexit, which wasn't an option anyone voted for, without the approval of 100% of voters (to 2sf).

(Bearing in mind that in the UK the electorate votes for an MP, and not a party leader or a prime minister...)

That depends on what you consider to be a big decision. One stand-out example would be the Norway Debate of 1940 that led to Chamberlain's resignation.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When was the last time a leader of a party that is going to make one of the biggest decisions for the country in history was not elected by the electorate? Brexit has been such a mess with Vote Leave's blatant cheating and lies, and everyone wanted a different thing when they voted to leave, now Boris is promising to take us on a no deal Brexit, which wasn't an option anyone voted for, without the approval of 100% of voters (to 2sf).

A most worthy answer to a question that politicians love to put forward, by not answering the question asked, but by setting their own question.

 

[Adsy125]

A most worthy answer to a question that politicians love to put forward, by not answering the question asked, but by setting their own question.

However leaders usually change in opposition, when no one really cares. It appears Boris is going to happily go against the Manifesto that he was elected MP as which seems a little off to me

 

[Carlisle]

Personally I think there will still be some kind of rehash of May’s deal, but with a separate arrangement for NI. How the DUP will be squared remains to be seen - perhaps a referendum in NI only?

Would the question on an NI only referendum ballot paper amount to,?

Do you want a hard border on:
A) The Irish Sea ?
Or
B) Between NI and Eire.?

If so Id suspect the majority want neither, given they voted remain in 2016 , it’d just increase divisions, whilst solving nothing other than increase the likelihood of the Uk breaking up at some point in the not too distant future

 

[krus_aragon]

However leaders usually change in opposition, when no one really cares. It appears Boris is going to happily go against the Manifesto that he was elected MP as which seems a little off to me

Personally, I think of manifestos as being like a "five year plan", and no plan survives contact with the enemy (or reality).

I've gone and downloaded a copy of that manifesto. (I'll freely admit that I didn't read it at the time.) I noted these bits in particular:

Theresa May’s Conservatives will deliver

• The best possible deal for Britain as we leave the European Union delivered by a smooth, orderly Brexit.

Following the historic referendum on 23rd June 2016, the United Kingdom is leaving the European Union. Only the Conservative Party, under Theresa May’s strong and stable leadership, can negotiate the best possible deal for our country.

As of next month they won't be Theresa May's Conservatives any more.

The United Kingdom is embarking upon another era in our centuries-old story. We are leaving the European Union. We want to ensure our departure is smooth and orderly and to agree a deep and special partnership with the 27 remaining member states.

We want to agree a deep and special partnership with the European Union. This partnership will benefit both the European Union and the United Kingdom: while we are leaving the European Union, we are not leaving Europe, and we want to remain committed partners and allies to our friends across the continent.

We "want" to, but might not be able to if the other side doesn't agree to what we ask...

The negotiations will undoubtedly be tough, and there will be give and take on both sides, but we continue to believe that no deal is better than a bad deal for the UK.

There's plenty of ambiguous material in there that a politician of Boris Johnson's calibre can claim to be acting according to the manifesto, whether he pursues further negotiations or turns toward a no-deal exit.


Those of us that disagree with the next Prime Minister's actions will have to hope that Parliament will hold the Government to account and, if need be, replace it (through an expression of no confidence in the Government). That is what we elect our MPs for, after all.

 

[AlterEgo]

Would the question on an NI only referendum ballot paper amount to,?

Do you want a hard border on:
A) The Irish Sea ?
Or
B) Between NI and Eire.?

If so Id suspect the majority want neither, given they voted remain in 2016 , it’d just increase divisions, whilst solving nothing other than increase the likelihood of the Uk breaking up at some point in the not too distant future

C) Go full on mental and just cede Northern Ireland to the republic, wash our hands and put our fingers in our ears.

 

[Esker-pades]

And Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is elected.

92,153 votes to Jeremy Hunt's 46,656.

It's almost exactly 2/3rds to 1/3rd.

 

[DarloRich]

All hail our new supreme leader Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, vanquisher of the evil Europeans, rider of the brexit benefit unicorn, speaker of truth, possessed of the finest moral fibre and securer of the bigleist trade deal ever devised............................

 

[Howardh]

Well Brexit's got what they wanted; so now they can only blame themselves for the complete mess they are getting the country in.

Example; the US wants us to capture a tanker, but washes it's hands of us when we ask for assistance in the Gulf, and we have to go cap-in-hand to the EU for protection.

Ah, well. Thank goodness I haven't many years left - reaching my 60's is turning out to be a blessing.

 

[Meole]

Goodbye HS2

 

[Aictos]

And Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is elected.

92,153 votes to Jeremy Hunt's 46,656.

It's almost exactly 2/3rds to 1/3rd.

Yeah just saw the announcement, I don’t have much faith in him as PM as apart from Brexit he needs to get the national infrastructure schemes started such as continuing with HS2, expand Heathrow, restart the electrification schemes that Grayling cancelled.

 

[TheEdge]

I for one am looking forward to our Mad Max future.