Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

[Mountain Man]

Except lots of people ARE complaining about the quality of the coffee from the trolley compared to the buffets...

And a lot of people complain about Buffet coffee

 

[Mountain Man]

Perhaps but apparently there is a review going on now and GWR are finally admitting there is a problem. Eventually a compromise will have to be found.
For the sake of one minute to sign the petition it's better than not bothering and admitting defeat. What is the worst that could happen?

They rip out much needed seats and put in a buffet?

 

[irish_rail]

They rip out much needed seats and put in a buffet?

Well if they were to convert the 9 car 802s to have buffets and ran them on the wofe line and let the 5 cars run the local stuff to bristol and oxford etc without a buffet it would work. The loss of 16 odd seats from a wofe 9 car would probably be justifiable. But of course we are stuck with pairs of 5s down here from December which probably kills off the idea sadly.

 

[Mountain Man]

Well if they were to convert the 9 car 802s to have buffets and ran them on the wofe line and let the 5 cars run the local stuff to bristol and oxford etc without a buffet it would work. The loss of 16 odd seats from a wofe 9 car would probably be justifiable. But of course we are stuck with pairs of 5s down here from December which probably kills off the idea sadly.

I simply do not believe the buffets are needed or make any sense. A trolley is fine. I grew up on the Golden Valley line and have lived in Devon. Seating capacity is a far bigger necessity. Ripping out seats for a buffet would be a backward step

 

[irish_rail]

I simply do not believe the buffets are needed or make any sense. A trolley is fine. I grew up on the Golden Valley line and have lived in Devon. Seating capacity is a far bigger necessity. Ripping out seats for a buffet would be a backward step

With the greatest respect I live and work on the route from Plymouth and I can confirm there is a very big demand for buffets. Customers and staff alike simply Do not like the trolley service down here and lately it is almost always static anyway. Also let's not forget that on the Paddington to Penzance route, other than padd and reading there are very limited retail outlets at stations on route and people are likely to want to buy food on the train, especially if heading eastbound.

 

[Mountain Man]

With the greatest respect I live and work on the route from Plymouth and I can confirm there is a very big demand for buffets. Customers and staff alike simply Do not like the trolley service down here and lately it is almost always static anyway. Also let's not forget that on the Paddington to Penzance route, other than padd and reading there are very limited retail outlets at stations on route and people are likely to want to buy food on the train, especially if heading eastbound.

I believe its a case of how you phrase the question to people.

Do you want a buffet? Yes
Do you want to lose a large numbers of seats of a crowded train? No

 

[DDB]

The key thing about this situation is that GWR don't need to have surveys or judge whether petitions are representative. They have access to the sales figures which will trump opinions eveytime. If buffets sell more than trolleys they will have a buffet and if the reverse is true they will have a trolley.

Job done!

DDB

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the greatest respect I live and work on the route from Plymouth and I can confirm there is a very big demand for buffets. Customers and staff alike simply Do not like the trolley service down here and lately it is almost always static anyway. Also let's not forget that on the Paddington to Penzance route, other than padd and reading there are very limited retail outlets at stations on route and people are likely to want to buy food on the train, especially if heading eastbound.

Is the demand for buffets, or just for the service not to be awful?

I resurrected this thread as it seemed the closest, but as I said if the trolley had served me an adequate quantity of tea on any recent GWR journey (approximately 1tph i.e. one tea per hour ) I wouldn't even have complained at all.

 

[mpthomson]

The presentation is 99% of it. Most pub meals these days are foodservice, not freshly cooked. People still buy them, indeed they appreciate how quickly they show up, which wouldn't be possible were they freshly cooked.



Done.

Most is a gross over-statement. It may be the case in Wethers and Brewers' Fayre but of the 10-15 pubs round where I am not a single one uses anything 'food service' related.

 

[RLBH]

The key thing about this situation is that GWR don't need to have surveys or judge whether petitions are representative. They have access to the sales figures which will trump opinions eveytime. If buffets sell more than trolleys they will have a buffet and if the reverse is true they will have a trolley.

That's a very good way of deciding what to withdraw - but a very poor way of determining what to introduce, which does require some interpretation.

Take a case where there's good uptake of a trolley and it's reasonably profitable (as far as such things go). That might indicate high latent demand that would justify a buffet. Or it might equally well be the case that that a trolley offers all that will ever be wanted.

Equally, if the trolley service has poor economics, it could be totally uneconomic to offer catering on the service at all. Or it could be the case that the route's characteristics are such that passengers won't buy from a trolley, but will buy a higher-value offering from a buffet car. Or it could just be that the trolley is being poorly managed, and all that's needed is to keep it moving.

That tradeoff can't be made by comparing the profits of the buffet and the trolley, because the buffet doesn't exist. Even a trial offering may not be conclusive if it's not consistently available. That's what did for Scotrail's buffet-fitted 170s years ago, passengers couldn't be confident of them being available so acted as though they didn't exist.

The major issue is the types of services. A buffet would never pay on an outer suburban route, which the GWML is being treated like and the IETs designed accordingly. For that work, the priority is obviously seats. For longer interurban routes - such as those to the south-west and LNER's routes - a buffet may well be justified, but would mean that the trains aren't interchangeable with the outer suburban routes. For LNER, there's no expectation that their IETs will be used for outer suburban work, so they can have an internal fit more appropriate to long distance services.

Dare I suggest that Bedwyn and Oxford need 10-car IETs with doors at thirds and a commuter seating layout?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Well if they were to convert the 9 car 802s to have buffets and ran them on the wofe line and let the 5 cars run the local stuff to bristol and oxford etc without a buffet it would work. The loss of 16 odd seats from a wofe 9 car would probably be justifiable. But of course we are stuck with pairs of 5s down here from December which probably kills off the idea sadly.

We’ve been round this debate before. The 9 car 802 sets were largely built for other workings with the 5 car 802 sets for West of England services (with the need to split at Plymouth).

There wasn’t justification financially at the time for 9 car sets beyond Plymouth outside peak holidays times AND the full Cornwall half-hourly service.

To do what you would suggest from the new timetable would require more IET sets to be ordered. Yes the stock currently runs as 9/10 cars into Cornwall but that’s an interim position without the half-hourly local service, without hourly Paddington to Cheltenham’s, and gaps in the Worcester service etc which are filled with the new timetable requiring more IETs in the Thames Valley than at present.

 

[Mountain Man]

With the greatest respect I live and work on the route from Plymouth and I can confirm there is a very big demand for buffets.

What statistical evidence do you have? Showing that given the choice, passengers want a buffet not seats.

A 1 sided question asking if they want a buffet would be meaningless

 

[Master29]

Or you could say, LNER, Anglia and TPE are incompetent for missing out on an easy way to add seating capacity.

Yes, and you can also say GWR are missing an entire coach of seats with the addition of 2 pointless kitchens.

 

[Master29]

What statistical evidence do you have? Showing that given the choice, passengers want a buffet not seats.

A 1 sided question asking if they want a buffet would be meaningless

Given that it`s unlikely any survey for the retention of a buffet was ever done by GWR or the DfT, this is meaningless. Have you ever used this line and do you know people that do. If so you probably wouldn`t come to that conclusion.

We’ve been round this debate before. The 9 car 802 sets were largely built for other workings with the 5 car 802 sets for West of England services (with the need to split at Plymouth).

There wasn’t justification financially at the time for 9 car sets beyond Plymouth outside peak holidays times AND the full Cornwall half-hourly service.
To do what you would suggest from the new timetable would require more IET sets to be ordered. Yes the stock currently runs as 9/10 cars into Cornwall but that’s an interim position without the half-hourly local service, without hourly Paddington to Cheltenham’s, and gaps in the Worcester service etc which are filled with the new timetable requiring more IETs in the Thames Valley than at present.

And I`ll once again say that all the 9 car 802`s were for other routes chestnut (by this you clearly mean the ever so valuable, gold plated Cotswolds line) simply isn`t true.

https://www.railway-technology.com/...at-westerns-361m-hitachi-train-order-4637150/
The follow on order of 7 nine car 802`s was intended to the "other routes" as you put it. The original 802 follow on order from the 800`s were mainly for us scumbags down here West of Exeter.
The outside holiday periods argument for Devon and Cornwall may well have been true 20 odd ears ago but this is no longer the case given the season starts before the end of February and continues through to November. Maybe not quite the peaks of July and August but the trains are still very busy even at these times.

 

[Mountain Man]

Given that it`s unlikely any survey for the retention of a buffet was ever done by GWR or the DfT, this is meaningless. Have you ever used this line and do you know people that do. If so you probably wouldn`t come to that conclusion.

Yes. I've lived the majority of my life on GWR routes, first on the Golden Valley line and latterly in Devon

 

[cactustwirly]

Most is a gross over-statement. It may be the case in Wethers and Brewers' Fayre but of the 10-15 pubs round where I am not a single one uses anything 'food service' related.

Agreed! If you go to a decent pub, most of them cook everything from fresh, some of the best food I've had is from independent pubs.
Some of the worst food has also come from pubs, like Wetherspoons, who use sub-standard microwave food.

 

[HowardGWR]

Having recently completed a round trip from Dorchester to Gatwick Airport via Barnham, journey time 3 1/2 hours (similar times via Clapham Junction but two thirds cheaper via Barnham!!!) without any refreshment offer on train, I boggle a bit about the foregoing discussion. We took sandwiches and tap water in our reusable plastic bottles. Why is there no campaign for buffet cars on Weymouth to Waterloo or Southampton to Victoria trains? Are SWR, (trolley from Southampton I believe), journey time 2 3/4 hours, and SR, nothing at all, journey time 2 1/2 hours, starving their customers?

Edit: Overall journey from Dorchester to Gatwick 3 1/2 hours whichever way you go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If GWR did not advertise a trolley service I'd have taken more with me.

If a TOC advertises a service it needs to deliver it properly. What's the point otherwise?

 

[JonathanH]

Why is there no campaign for buffet cars on Weymouth to Waterloo or Southampton to Victoria trains? Are SWR, (trolley from Southampton I believe), journey time 2 3/4 hours, and SR, nothing at all, journey time 2 1/2 hours, starving their customers?

Ironically there is an unused buffet counter on the 444s used on Weymouth trains that is currently being removed for more seating.

 

[capital12]

Just stumbled across this and read through some of the comments before looking at the petition itself.

I would certainly gauge from my experience that a buffet would be able to offer a greater consistency in service over the unreliability of the trolley.

But i’d assumed the petition had been set up by a member of the public, however on reading it is a shouty shouty rant by the RMT, so won’t be signing that and probably explains the low number of those who have.

 

[HowardGWR]

Ironically there is an unused buffet counter on the 444s used on Weymouth trains that is currently being removed for more seating.

To perhaps put this GWR 'issue' in perspective (just another RMT campaign, I now understand) what is the longest journey on NR metals without any on-board refreshment service provided? A second point would be which is the longest journey with only a trolley. Given my example above, don't forget that a passenger is not interested about whether a change of train is needed, especially when there is only limited time between connections. They are only interested in what's available during the journey. I cite my 3 1/2 hours but I expect there are worse.

 

[Master29]

I believe its a case of how you phrase the question to people.

Do you want a buffet? Yes
Do you want to lose a large numbers of seats of a crowded train? No

….And 2 kitchens doing absolutely nothing (the equivalent of 88 standard seats) doesn`t constitute a waste of space on 2x5 IET`s as opposed to losing only 32 seats for 2 mini buffets?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To perhaps put this GWR 'issue' in perspective (just another RMT campaign, I now understand) what is the longest journey on NR metals without any on-board refreshment service provided?

The two that I can think of are those new long through runs on LNR from Liverpool to London (though I doubt that many people do that as a through trip, though some certainly will and my Dad did do Liverpool to Bletchley) and some Waterloo-Weymouth services which are also about a 4.5 hour run, though most have a trolley from Bournemouth I believe.

A full Lancaster-Carlisle via the Cumbrian Coast is about 3 hours I think?

There is definitely an issue - I didn't like it being advertised that I'd get a cup of tea (well, about 3-4 in that length of journey) and none being forthcoming. If I knew it was not offered I'd have taken my large flask and taken my own. I'm less bothered about the mechanism that said cups of tea are obtained by, just that I can have them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

….And 2 kitchens doing absolutely nothing (the equivalent of 88 standard seats) doesn`t constitute a waste of space on 2x5 IET`s as opposed to losing only 32 seats for 2 mini buffets?

It's not 88, it's about 44 as it's half a coach (edit: oh, you mean on a 10-car set, sorry), but I do agree with the principle - it is a waste of space on a 5-car set and a more "foodservice" style approach should have been adopted to allow it to be reduced to the size of a Voyager kitchen, which fits in the "crumple zone" space which is about the space that would be taken up by about 12 Standard seats. It's about the only thing on a Voyager which isn't wastefully designed.

 

[RLBH]

To perhaps put this GWR 'issue' in perspective (just another RMT campaign, I now understand) what is the longest journey on NR metals without any on-board refreshment service provided? A second point would be which is the longest journey with only a trolley. Given my example above, don't forget that a passenger is not interested about whether a change of train is needed, especially when there is only limited time between connections. They are only interested in what's available during the journey. I cite my 3 1/2 hours but I expect there are worse.

Longest with only a trolley - and allowing connections - must surely be Wick to Penzance - at least until Scotrail gets buffets in on all Highland Main Line services.

Longest through run with only a trolley will be the Aberdeen to Penzance XC run - while noting that it's not actually very good as a way of getting from Aberdeen to Penzance.

 

[bnm]

The two that I can think of are those new long through runs on LNR from Liverpool to London (though I doubt that many people do that as a through trip, though some certainly will and my Dad did do Liverpool to Bletchley) and some Waterloo-Weymouth services which are also about a 4.5 hour run, though most have a trolley from Bournemouth I believe.

A full Lancaster-Carlisle via the Cumbrian Coast is about 3 hours I think?

Bristol Parkway - Penzance 0624 Mon-Fri 4h 56m with no catering.

Great Malvern - Weymouth on Saturdays. 4h 36m with no catering.

 

[ashkeba]

Longest with only a trolley - and allowing connections - must surely be Wick to Penzance - at least until Scotrail gets buffets in on all Highland Main Line services.

Longest through run with only a trolley will be the Aberdeen to Penzance XC run - while noting that it's not actually very good as a way of getting from Aberdeen to Penzance.

I've been on that in Virgin days when platform alterations meant both buffet crews failed to board so the whole run was uncatered! As others have said, advertising it and not delivering is even worse than normally running it uncatered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been on that in Virgin days when platform alterations meant both buffet crews failed to board so the whole run was uncatered! As others have said, advertising it and not delivering is even worse than normally running it uncatered.

Agreed. As I said, if GWR didn't offer catering I'd have taken a large flask of tea.

 

[GodAtum]

My family travelled from Padding to Penzance which is 5 hours. We didn't bring any food as expected some form of service on-board. The children where crying all the way along as they were starving.

 

[strangemonk]

Hmmm...difficult choice, seat or buffet? I’ll take seats please.
It’s all well and good starting these petitions, but when seats have been removed to install one and the company say to those who then complain of overcrowding “it’s what you asked for” the same people complain again!
As with all petitions though, if everyone who signs it had been making purchases from the buffet it wouldn’t have been removed in the first place.

Is what I hear daily, I work on the GEML LST to NRW, yeah buffet is nice to have but it isn't the responsibility of the TOC to provide food and drink that's able to be purchased its your responsibility to ensure your well fed and watered and angers me when people moan wheres the buffet? There isn't one, complains to twitter.

Trouble is other TOCs set such a unrealistic high standard on long distance journeys they come down to London and expect roses and champagne on a 1hr 49 journey, if we all set a mediocre service onboard like GWR then sad acts complaining would go away.