Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

[anamyd]

Doubt it according to a source the new CAF 196 units will start working in wm end of the year

the end of this year...? 2019?!

 

[RealTrains07]

the end of this year...? 2019?!

Apparently so, well not in passenger service but working for training drivers etc most realistically lets be honest

 

[samuelmorris]

Apparently so, well not in passenger service but working for training drivers etc most realistically lets be honest

I would have though it will be at least a few months after the 195s enter service, so I'd be surprised if we see them before Spring.

 

[RealTrains07]

I would have though it will be at least a few months after the 195s enter service, so I'd be surprised if we see them before Spring.

Well 1 unit is near enough finished from what has been previewed so far so we will see.

 

[Grannyjoans]

The first 195s are due to enter service in July on Manchester Airport to Barrow

 

[Harvey B]

Why has this turned into a discussion about 195s

 

[RealTrains07]

Why has this turned into a discussion about 195s

Well considering they are meant to be part of the sets of units “replacing” the 323s

 

[Harvey B]

Well considering they are meant to be part of the sets of units “replacing” the 323s

Wouldn't that be 331s "replacing" the 323s

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Well considering they are meant to be part of the sets of units “replacing” the 323s

The 323s are being replaced by 730/0s so none will be leaving WMR for some time.

 

[RealTrains07]

Wouldn't that be 331s "replacing" the 323s

Like i said part of the sets of units, with sets indicating more than 1 type

 

[Grannyjoans]

331s are replacing the 323's from the Hadfield and Stoke Lines. Maybe those 323s will replace 319s on some other routes such as Lime St - Wigan via Bryn ?

 

[RealTrains07]

331s are replacing the 323's from the Hadfield and Stoke Lines. Maybe those 323s will replace 319s on some other routes such as Lime St - Wigan via Bryn ?

From 4 coaches to 3? Doubt that would be a good thing unless doubled up?

 

[Grannyjoans]

Yes but do 323's have very nearly as much room as a 319 due to the smaller toilet and longer carriage length ?

The best outcome would be 331s on Liverpool-Wigan if the Hadfield line is getting them then why isn't the Bryn line ?

 

[RealTrains07]

Yes but do 323's have very nearly as much room as a 319 due to the smaller toilet and longer carriage length ?

The best outcome would be 331s on Liverpool-Wigan if the Hadfield line is getting them then why isn't the Bryn line ?

Well considering their will be a 4 car 331 variant. Makes sense if 319 are 4 car on the liverpool line

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes but do 323's have very nearly as much room as a 319 due to the smaller toilet and longer carriage length ?
The best outcome would be 331s on Liverpool-Wigan if the Hadfield line is getting them then why isn't the Bryn line ?

There's a 60-seat difference between 319 and 323. 304 v 244 I think.

 

[RealTrains07]

There's a 60-seat difference between 319 and 323. 304 v 244 I think.

Funny that considering u would think because 319 are 4 car they have more seats

 

[prod_pep]

Most of Northern's 323s have 284 seats, except luggage-racked 323223-225 which have 244. This would reduce to 275 with a compliant toilet fitted.

Personally, I'd venture the significant improvement in performance and reliability a 323 would bring outstrips the small reduction in seats. The Liverpool - Wigan peak trains are busy but I think a 323 would manage the loads.

 

[samuelmorris]

Funny that considering u would think because 319 are 4 car they have more seats

323s are 3x23m, 319s are 4x20m, the difference in length isn't as great as it might seem.

 

[Grannyjoans]

Personally, I'd venture the significant improvement in performance and reliability a 323 would bring outstrips the small reduction in seats. The Liverpool - Wigan peak trains are busy but I think a 323 would manage the loads.

I think capacity on this line is a bigger problem than reliability and traction performance. I have heard that all the Northern 319's are going, so if this is true then maybe Wigan-Liverpool will have to go 331s because the 323s are too short. Unless platform extending takes place to run them in pairs.

 

[childwallblues]

331s are replacing the 323's from the Hadfield and Stoke Lines. Maybe those 323s will replace 319s on some other routes such as Lime St - Wigan via Bryn ?

LIV-WGN is diagrammed for 4 car 319s. If you are going to reduce the diagrams to three car we may as well have the 331s and let Hadfield/Stoke keep their 323s!

 

[jonesy3001]

when do they start going for C6 exams?

 

[prod_pep]

I think capacity on this line is a bigger problem than reliability and traction performance. I have heard that all the Northern 319's are going, so if this is true then maybe Wigan-Liverpool will have to go 331s because the 323s are too short. Unless platform extending takes place to run them in pairs.

The reliability of the Wigan service is poor at present. There are cancellations due to unavailable staff, but 319 failures and two car DMU substitutions on this line are also far too common. I think most passengers would prefer a reliable service, which is not provided by the 319s - the same trains that consistently struggle to keep to time due to terrible acceleration. As I say, the trains are busy but a loss of 20 seats is hardly doomsday.

There are only 12 of the 4 car 331s on order, so I doubt there will be enough to go around. I wonder if the Liverpool - Blackpool service could use 4 car 331s? These services tend to be fuller than the Wigan stoppers.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I think capacity on this line is a bigger problem than reliability and traction performance. I have heard that all the Northern 319's are going, so if this is true then maybe Wigan-Liverpool will have to go 331s because the 323s are too short. Unless platform extending takes place to run them in pairs.

How many trains actually need all that capacity? Pre-electrification strengthened trains (ie more than 2-car) were few and far between yet overcrowding was largely confined to west of Huyton ie not unreasonable. Leaving people on the platforms was extremely unusual (unlike Wigan to Manchester). So I doubt that 323s on this route would cause any genuine issues. Their mechanical performance however could be rather useful on the banks either side of St Helens especially during leaf-fall season.

 

[507 001]

How many trains actually need all that capacity? Pre-electrification strengthened trains (ie more than 2-car) were few and far between yet overcrowding was largely confined to west of Huyton ie not unreasonable. Leaving people on the platforms was extremely unusual (unlike Wigan to Manchester). So I doubt that 323s on this route would cause any genuine issues. Their mechanical performance however could be rather useful on the banks either side of St Helens especially during leaf-fall season.

Agreed!

An interesting note would be that the 1720 Man Pic to Lime Street used to be a 319 but is now a 323. The couple of times I’ve caught it since the change, it hasn’t seemed any more overcrowded than it did. With that in mind, I don’t think they would struggle with the Liverpool-Wigans at all.

 

[driver_m]

How many trains actually need all that capacity? Pre-electrification strengthened trains (ie more than 2-car) were few and far between yet overcrowding was largely confined to west of Huyton ie not unreasonable. Leaving people on the platforms was extremely unusual (unlike Wigan to Manchester). So I doubt that 323s on this route would cause any genuine issues. Their mechanical performance however could be rather useful on the banks either side of St Helens especially during leaf-fall season.

323’s can also be awful in leaf fall season. I’ve had to crawl behind one many a time when working out of Manchester heading to Macc/Crewe. The only genuinely impressive unit I’ve encountered in leaf fall is a 350.

 

[Grannyjoans]

319's are definitely worse than 323's in leaf fall. I've had many crawling uphill at 5mph for prolonged periods with the sanders blowing.

 

[prod_pep]

323229 has worked 1217 Crewe - Liverpool Lime Street and 1445 Liverpool Lime Street - Wigan North Western this afternoon. Next working will be 1551 Wigan North Western - Liverpool Lime Street.

First time I've seen a 323 set on this diagram.

 

[RealTrains07]

195s and 331s in service now. I guess we will now see if the 323s are being kept by northern or not

 

[James Kevill]

If I recall, I've heard that the Class 323s would be converted into Battery Electric Multiple Units and it was planned by Porterbrook.

 

[jonesy3001]

If I recall, I've heard that the Class 323s would be converted into Battery Electric Multiple Units and it was planned by Porterbrook.

That's the 350/2s when they come off lease.