East Coast franchise – direct award to LNER until 2025

[Clip]

I don’t think streaming was common when this happened and I suspect there was quite a gap before WIFI was introduced (not that they allow streaming content anyway). My portable DAB/FM radio barely even worked on anything newer than the IC225s so entertainment options were limited!

FM radio still doesnt work on it so you're kind of stuck unless you have content on your device

 

[Master29]

I've consistently found XC to be cheaper than LNER from Edinburgh to Newcastle and vice versa

XCountry have an odd faring system which has something to do with what are and are not primary routes. You can get quite cheap advances from Cornwall to Bristol say but beyond that the fares increase massively. It can be cheaper to go from Cornwall or Devon to London and get a train from either Kings X or Euston if you`re heading north, and as you point out a similar situation between Scotland and Tyneside.

 

[route:oxford]

• By May 2020 An extra Stirling service will be introduced.

So that will be a third daily ECML service to London from Stirling?

Any hints as to the expected departure times?

 

[GoneSouth]

I don't overly care who runs it, personally. However, the "race to the bottom" is the cause of almost all issues you get in any contracted service delivery.

I suspect you’re probably right but I hope not. When GNER ran the service my memories are that it was excellent, albeit with newish infrastructure and trains. Well LNER now have a whole brand new fleet so let’s hope the quality of service can stay at consistently high levels unlike some of the TOCs.

 

[GoneSouth]

XCountry have an odd faring system which has something to do with what are and are not primary routes. You can get quite cheap advances from Cornwall to Bristol say but beyond that the fares increase massively. It can be cheaper to go from Cornwall or Devon to London and get a train from either Kings X or Euston if you`re heading north, and as you point out a similar situation between Scotland and Tyneside.

I’ve found that also but assumed the fares beyond Bristol were set by GWR? I’d also assumed a similar situation between Newcastle and Edinburgh where LNER set fares. Im probably completely wrong though

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

So that will be a third daily ECML service to London from Stirling?

Any hints as to the expected departure times?

I believe its the second to start at Stirling though. But no idea yet i expect it will be announced after December 2019 timetable changes

 

[whhistle]

[*]From December 2019, an extra Sunderland service will be introduced[/LIST]

Not sure why Sunderland has become the new favourite place.
I get open access operators have to start/end somewhere strange to pretend there's loads of business from there when it's really about getting people/revenue from intemediate stations.

 

[pt_mad]

Bletchleyite's point may actually turn out to be more subtle than it appears - whilst you are correct that the ECML has always been a premium-paying franchise, this does not take into account the massive amounts paid to Network Rail. When broken down by route and by TOC (something that is definitely the subject of interpretation and method!) this shows that the ECML franchise barely breaks even. So if LNER have managed to get it to actually bring the Government a profit once all costs are considered then they have done a good job. I don't think the ORR's annual statistics are available for LNER's period of management to determine this.

Is it remotely possible that this forthcoming direct award could be the result of finances possibly showing the operation can't turn a profit under normal franchise/premium conditions? And thus it wouldn't be viable re-tendering it in the short term as it's managing to break even?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Looking through the fares for a couple of months hence, they still seem to be persisting with VTEC's uninspiring pricing model.

They are persisting with VTEC's uninspiring management, so...

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are persisting with VTEC's uninspiring management, so...

If there's ever been an argument against TUPE...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is it remotely possible that this forthcoming direct award could be the result of finances possibly showing the operation can't turn a profit under normal franchise/premium conditions?

The uncertainty of Brexit is more likely.

 

[Edders23]

well after yesterdays fun and games I think a few questions might be asked

 

[Esker-pades]

well after yesterdays fun and games I think a few questions might be asked

Why? .

 

[Tom B]

When did XC and LNER/VTEC first introduce WIFI ?

Around 2005 I think.

 

[benbristow]

Quite happy with this personally.

Doesn't seem 2 minutes since it switched over from VTEC to LNER.

LNER seem to be doing a decent job whenever I've used them to go down South and it saves the hassle of them having to go through the re-branding stage again (website, livery etc. etc.). The WiFi (albeit not very good) being made totally free is a nice change anol compared to the VTEC 'free WiFi if you book direct' model.

 

[Ianno87]

Around 2005 I think.

GNER did it with the 'Mallard' refurbishment programme.

 

[benbristow]

Not sure why Sunderland has become the new favourite place.
I get open access operators have to start/end somewhere strange to pretend there's loads of business from there when it's really about getting people/revenue from intemediate stations.

Well Sunderland is right next to Newcastle...

 

[pt_mad]

Is it not the case that the LNER brand will stick with the operation permanently now regardless of whether it is re-let as the East Coast Partnership? Thought that was the idea? Brand continuity.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is it not the case that the LNER brand will stick with the operation permanently now regardless of whether it is re-let as the East Coast Partnership? Thought that was the idea? Brand continuity.

Yes that's the idea.
But there's no clarity at all on how the (private, franchised) TOC and the (public, CP funded) NR Route/Region will be integrated as ECP.
Or whether it will include the GN part of GTR.
All waiting for the Williams review.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Sunderland is the new favourite place because a. it's a great place and b. (perhaps more importantly) it's also where GC trains start. TOCs compete for revenue throughout the UK network. That also explains why XC offers good ADV fares from Edinburgh to Yorkshire and from Bristol to Plymouth: they are competing against LNER and GWR respectively.

 

[pt_mad]

Yes that's the idea.
But there's no clarity at all on how the (private, franchised) TOC and the (public, CP funded) NR Route/Region will be integrated as ECP.
Or whether it will include the GN part of GTR.
All waiting for the Williams review.

So in a way the thread title is slightly ambiguous as it's not actually LNER who will get the direct award but The Operator of Last Resort, as LNER is simply the brand and will stay whatever. It's not a company entity in itself?

 

[Aictos]

Quite happy with this personally.

Doesn't seem 2 minutes since it switched over from VTEC to LNER.

LNER seem to be doing a decent job whenever I've used them to go down South and it saves the hassle of them having to go through the re-branding stage again (website, livery etc. etc.). The WiFi (albeit not very good) being made totally free is a nice change anol compared to the VTEC 'free WiFi if you book direct' model.

Also don’t forget the Azumas have had the WiFi upgraded ie the backbone of the system is far more reliable and hence should be quicker then if the classic fleets, this has been confirmed by LNER so no doubt about it.

 

[GoneSouth]

it's also where GC trains start. TOCs compete for revenue throughout the UK network. That also explains why XC offers good ADV fares from Edinburgh to Yorkshire and from Bristol to Plymouth: they are competing against LNER and GWR respectively.

This sounds about right. Now, when do we get competition and therefor better value between Bristol and York? Thought that was privatisation was all about, choice, value and the market... not government awarded monopolies! Maybe a discussion for a different thread!

 

[pt_mad]

This sounds about right. Now, when do we get competition and therefor better value between Bristol and York? Thought that was privatisation was all about, choice, value and the market... not government awarded monopolies! Maybe a discussion for a different thread!

And at the same time competition which lead to potential loss of revenue from the franchised operator could put a franchisee in danger of loss of expected revenue therefore not being able to make premium payments. That then could then be bad value for the taxpayer if a franchise needed to be taken back or bailed out if revenue was drastically down due to undercutting.

 

[GoneSouth]

And at the same time competition which lead to potential loss of revenue from the franchised operator could put a franchisee in danger of loss of expected revenue therefore not being able to make premium payments. That then could then be bad value for the taxpayer if a franchise needed to be taken back or bailed out if revenue was drastically down due to undercutting.

Indeed which is why the whole experiment was a complete waste of time and money. As there is no competition on most of the network and, as you say, introducing it could mean the franchises fail, let’s just stop pretending we have a privately operated railway and make some brave decisions to start again. This subject is probably done to death on different threads!

 

[GoneSouth]

And at the same time competition which lead to potential loss of revenue from the franchised operator could put a franchisee in danger of loss of expected revenue therefore not being able to make premium payments. That then could then be bad value for the taxpayer if a franchise needed to be taken back or bailed out if revenue was drastically down due to undercutting.

Indeed which is why the whole experiment was a complete waste of time and money. As there is no competition on most of the network and, as you say, introducing it could mean the franchises fail, let’s just stop pretending we have a privately operated railway and make some brave decisions to start again. This subject is probably done to death on different threads!

 

[route101]

From Glasgow to Newcastle , the cheaper advances are from Queen St to Newcastle via Edinburgh on LNER rather than XC ive found.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sunderland is the new favourite place because a. it's a great place and b. (perhaps more importantly) it's also where GC trains start. TOCs compete for revenue throughout the UK network. That also explains why XC offers good ADV fares from Edinburgh to Yorkshire and from Bristol to Plymouth: they are competing against LNER and GWR respectively.

...and c. It can easily be reached in marginal time by trains that aren’t doing anything else at that time of day, in other words no additional rolling stock is required.

 

[ainsworth74]

So in a way the thread title is slightly ambiguous as it's not actually LNER who will get the direct award but The Operator of Last Resort, as LNER is simply the brand and will stay whatever. It's not a company entity in itself?

This company will be getting an extension and that company is called "London North Eastern Railway Limited".

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

So in a way the thread title is slightly ambiguous as it's not actually LNER who will get the direct award but The Operator of Last Resort, as LNER is simply the brand and will stay whatever. It's not a company entity in itself?

LNER is the name of the company known as London North Eastern Railway Limited owned by DfT OLR Holdings Limited (Operator of Last Resort). Think of it like any other operator like Virgin Trains, Virgin Trains is the trading name of West Coast Trains Limited but if they were to get an extension it is to West Coast Trains not Virgin Rail Group. For LNER it is the same, LNER is the trading name of the present and any future TOC of the East Coast franchise but the current company running the franchise is London North Eastern Railway Limited, owned by the OLR so the Extension is to the company not the Operator of Last Resort. The company’s legal name could be ‘East Coast Railway Limited’ and it would still be trading as LNER but any contract extension goes to the operator not the parent company (which is what the OLR is).