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Class 378's to be shortened to 4 cars and used on GOBLIN?

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Mikey C

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Caught a 378 today on the GOBLIN, a real sea change in smoothness and quietness over the 172s, which by DMU standards were pretty good anyway

Not as busy as I was expecting, caught the 17:54 from South Tottenham westbound and easily got a seat
 
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700007

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Caught a 378 today on the GOBLIN, a real sea change in smoothness and quietness over the 172s, which by DMU standards were pretty good anyway

Not as busy as I was expecting, caught the 17:54 from South Tottenham westbound and easily got a seat
I think too many passengers have been scared off from using the line for a while!
 

87015

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Last week of planned 378s (1 unit) on Gospel Oak. 4-cars should be out on DC tomorrow if they haven't started today.
 

samuelmorris

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Last week of planned 378s (1 unit) on Gospel Oak. 4-cars should be out on DC tomorrow if they haven't started today.
They kept that quiet! I assume that'll be because of the perceived capacity loss from 5 to 4-car units. Has the 4th DC diagram appeared now?
 

simple simon

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Have the other two been returned to Willesden to have their fifth car reinstated prior to taking up their native duties on the NLL/ELLE?

I passed through Willesden Junction a few days ago and noted that all removed 378 carriages were still in the siding.

It will be next week before I can pass that way again, as this week coming I'll be overseas.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Have the other two been returned to Willesden to have their fifth car reinstated prior to taking up their native duties on the NLL/ELLE?

I would think it would take a few days to do that - if tomorrow is down to one diagram for the week ahead they would logically still need two units available, surely? Plus, if four DC diagrams start tomorrow that would put a bit of slack into the 378 requirements so there would presumably be a bit of breathing space in the fleet?
 

ijmad

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Or will they leave them as 4-car for the DC? That's what that line will end up with anyway. The idea being to move from 3tph x 5 cars to 4tph x 4 cars, eventually as 710s, but there's a missing diagram at the moment as @samuelmorris points out. Creates a rather uneven service (15 min - 15 min - 30 min repeat).
 

43096

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Or will they leave them as 4-car for the DC? That's what that line will end up with anyway. The idea being to move from 3tph x 5 cars to 4tph x 4 cars, eventually as 710s, but there's a missing diagram at the moment as @samuelmorris points out. Creates a rather uneven service (15 min - 15 min - 30 min repeat).
I would expect them to go back to 5 car as soon as possible so that the fleet is back to common user between DC and North London Line. They can also then re-start the overhaul programme on the 378s.
 

hwl

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I would expect them to go back to 5 car as soon as possible so that the fleet is back to common user between DC and North London Line. They can also then re-start the overhaul programme on the 378s.
I'd only expect them to go back to 5 car when they have at least 8x 710 properly bedded so they can be sure of 6 to run Goblin.
 

Railperf

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I'd only expect them to go back to 5 car when they have at least 8x 710 properly bedded so they can be sure of 6 to run Goblin.
That would make the most sense or certainly at least 7 units minimum.
 

Railperf

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Despite all the talk about how lightweight these units are I was shocked to see that the average vehicle weight of 40 tonnes for a class 710 is approximately 25% heavier than the average 28 to 29 tons of a class 700 desiro City vehicle
 

samuelmorris

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Despite all the talk about how lightweight these units are I was shocked to see that the average vehicle weight of 40 tonnes for a class 710 is approximately 25% heavier than the average 28 to 29 tons of a class 700 desiro City vehicle
The average vehicle weight of a 710 is 36 tonnes? Compared with the 34.5 for a 700, there's not a big difference. Considering the 710s are only 4-car so a greater proportion of the unit is the heavy cab, transformer etc. that seems about right.
 

rebmcr

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Despite all the talk about how lightweight these units are I was shocked to see that the average vehicle weight of 40 tonnes for a class 710 is approximately 25% heavier than the average 28 to 29 tons of a class 700 desiro City vehicle

Despite Bombardier's patented lightweight bogies!
 

hwl

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The average vehicle weight of a 710 is 36 tonnes? Compared with the 34.5 for a 700, there's not a big difference. Considering the 710s are only 4-car so a greater proportion of the unit is the heavy cab, transformer etc. that seems about right.
Cabs add about 1.5 to 2 tonnes each.
Class 710 (5 car) dual voltage is 36.4 t /car average.
5car 707 is 32.4 t /car average with transformer and pantograph removed and less traction equipment (2 fewer traction motors, the remaining motors being smaller and lighter, 1 fewer set of traction electronics).

Class 700 (12 car) is 34.2 t /car average
Class 700 (8 car) is 34.8 t /car average

Bombardier and Siemens have very different equipment location strategies so you can't just compare the lightest Siemens car with virtually no equipment fitted to the lightest Bombardier one with some equipment.

The Bombardier 710 driving cars are also about a metre longer than the Desiro City ones.

TfL also require greater equipment redundancy for LO.
 

samuelmorris

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Cabs add about 1.5 to 2 tonnes each.
Class 710 (5 car) dual voltage is 36.4 t /car average.
5car 707 is 32.4 t /car average with transformer and pantograph removed and less traction equipment (2 fewer traction motors, the remaining motors being smaller and lighter, 1 fewer set of traction electronics).

Class 700 (12 car) is 34.2 t /car average
Class 700 (8 car) is 34.8 t /car average

Bombardier and Siemens have very different equipment location strategies so you can't just compare the lightest Siemens car with virtually no equipment fitted to the lightest Bombardier one with some equipment.
I don't know the individual car weights so I can't comment on those. To me though, it looks very similar.
 

hwl

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I don't know the individual car weights so I can't comment on those. To me though, it looks very similar.
That was the point I was making without saying it directly! I also added a few extra bits to the comment after you started typing.
The biggest weight savings from Bombardier come from the longer car lengths e.g. 22m or 24m as you have fewer bogies and then useful feedback loop effects as you need less power.
 

CyrusWuff

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By way of comparison, the 313s are 104.5 tonnes for a three car (36 tonnes for the DMSO, 31 for the PTSO and 37.5 for the BDMSO), the 315s are 127.5 tonnes for a four car unit (35 tonnes for the DMSOs, 32 for the PTSO and 25.5 for the TSO) and the 317s are 137 tonnes for a four car unit (29.5 tonnes for the DTSOs, 49 tonnes for the MSO and 29 tonnes for the TCO.

Acronyms:
  • BDMSO - Battery Driving Motor Standard Open
  • DMSO - Driving Motor Standard Open
  • DTSO - Driving Trailer Standard Open
  • MSO - Motor Standard Open
  • PTSO - Pantograph Trailer Standard Open
  • TCO - Trailer Composite Open
  • TSO - Trailer Standard Open
 

ijmad

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So can anyone confirm if there is a 4 car 378 working the Watford DC this morning? One of the missing 15 minute diagrams seems to be covered (alternate hours have 4tph).
 

swt_passenger

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So can anyone confirm if there is a 4 car 378 working the Watford DC this morning? One of the missing 15 minute diagrams seems to be covered (alternate hours have 4tph).
378209 has been reported in another forum as in service as a 4 car on the DC line today.
 

simple simon

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I was on the Goblin today and only saw 710's. I saw at least four Goblin trains.

The three orphaned 378 carriages are still in the siding at Willesden Junction, but there was only one 710 there with them (previously I have seen 2x or even 3x 710's here)
 

ijmad

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I was on the Goblin today and only saw 710's. I saw at least four Goblin trains.

The three orphaned 378 carriages are still in the siding at Willesden Junction, but there was only one 710 there with them (previously I have seen 2x or even 3x 710's here)

The 4 car 378s are operating the Watford DC route along with their usual 5 car brethren. My guess is the stock shortage for the new timetable will mean we'll see a few more 710s introduced before they get their fifth carriage back.

There was one missing diagram today on the DC though (according to RTT) so I guess maybe there's a failed unit or one has gone elsewhere...
 

swt_passenger

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The 4 car 378s are operating the Watford DC route along with their usual 5 car brethren. My guess is the stock shortage for the new timetable will mean we'll see a few more 710s introduced before they get their fifth carriage back.

There was one missing diagram today on the DC though (according to RTT) so I guess maybe there's a failed unit or one has gone elsewhere...
Is it a gradual ramp up to the 8 unit (4 tph) service? Tomorrow seems to have 7 services per 2 hours, ie one half hour gap, with the other trains 15 mins apart. The 8th cancelled service appears on RTT if you include the “CAN” button. I think last week there were 2 of the 8 diagrams missing.

Planned cancellations seem to finish this Saturday?
 
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ijmad

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Still lacking that 8th diagram on the Watford DC as of today. Suggests to me that there is still a shortage of 378s? Perhaps the May timetable on the NLL/WLL has put the fleet under more pressure, and this is where it's creaking.

Roll on the 710s on the WDC and hopefully that'll free up slack.
 

bnsf734

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I was at Euston yesterday and noted 378232 is still running as a 4 car set. I didn't see any more 378s on the DC lines to confirm any more sets as 4 or 5 car.
 

astock5000

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All three of the removed cars were still in the siding at Willesden last Thursday. I travelled on 378206 but can't remember if I saw either of the other two 4-car units out and about.
 
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