New trains for East Midlands Franchise

[222001]

Yes it has!

At the time, it had not publicly.

 

[SPADTrap]

Indeed. It will be no different to when 10 car 222s call there now.

It will be, it isn't automatic at present.

 

[samuelmorris]

£600m is a lot. Assuming a general price of ~£2.2m for a class 802 coach, that's enough for 272 coaches - so around 30 9 car sets!

There are technically 279 coaches to replace, so that seems reasonable.

Any long distance service (as in, 100 miles+) that has stops that are more than 10 minutes apart on average, and would be impractical to commute its entire length on a daily basis, seems fair to call an inter-city service to me.

 

[whhistle]

Disappointing.
Not a fan of the Hitachi offering overall, although the passenger environment is quite nice.


Also, I believe it's been confirmed the 360s will operate with one Train Manager per set.

 

[The Ham]

There are technically 279 coaches to replace, so that seems reasonable.

Any long distance service (as in, 100 miles+) that has stops that are more than 10 minutes apart on average, and would be impractical to commute its entire length on a daily basis, seems fair to call an inter-city service to me.

Does the figure of 279 also include those which are used for running the Corby services which are being replaced by EMU's? If so that could allow for lengthening of units to 9/10 coaches rather than the current 222 lengths.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Glad that the trains will still be manufactured in the UK.

The word is assembled, not manufactured. All the high value work is done elsewhere.

Either design would have significant components sourced abroad (probably rather more for Hitachi compared to Bombardier).
If it's Hitachi they can call on their Pistoia factory in Italy as well as Newton Aycliffe and Japan, as they have for previous orders.
Very likely the diesel power packs will be from Rolls Royce (ie MTU Germany).
Hitachi also has significant support infrastructure on the ground (which they own), eg the depot at Doncaster.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is to discuss the new trains for the East Midlands franchise.

Please create a new thread in an appropriate section (or use an existing thread, if there is one) if you wish to discuss anything else.

Also please don't forget that speculative ideas belong in the Speculative Ideas section. We also have sections for fares, timetabling etc.

Thanks

 

[samuelmorris]

Does the figure of 279 also include those which are used for running the Corby services which are being replaced by EMU's? If so that could allow for lengthening of units to 9/10 coaches rather than the current 222 lengths.

Yes it does, and presumably, yes it will.

Either design would have significant components sourced abroad (probably rather more for Hitachi compared to Bombardier)

That's actually the case? I'm certain when the 800s were first announced they put out a detailed diagram illustrating which components were UK-sourced and it was ultimately equal or better to what Bombardier units had at the time, in terms of '% UK content'.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Blow for Bombardier's Derby plant as £600m train contract goes to Hitachi
19 JULY 2019
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ers-derby-plant-600m-train-deal-goes-hitachi/

Bombardier only has a large backlog of orders, right?

Oh what a surprise, Bombardier doesn't win a tender or an order and an article comes out saying jobs are at risk at the 'British' company because the 'foreign company' has won it.

The thing that annoys me about articles like this is that Bombardier can have a deplorable record of not delivering a flexible or quality product on time and this is never mentioned because they are apparently British, and if we go down the road of only buying something based on it's nationality then that will mean that certain companies will always be a shoo-in so there is no incentive to build a proper quality product as they'll get the contract anyway however deplorable it is.

At the end of the day, who cares about how reliable and suitable a train is, all of these are secondary concerns to what the apparent nationality of the train builder is. At the end of the day the pain will be worth the independence that we will have from those pesky foreigners, right?

 

[samuelmorris]

Oh what a surprise, Bombardier doesn't win a tender or an order and an article comes out saying jobs are at risk at the 'British' company because the 'foreign company' has won it.

The thing that annoys me about articles like this is that Bombardier can have a deplorable record of not delivering a flexible or quality product on time and this is never mentioned because they are apparently British, and if we go down the road of only buying something based on it's nationality then that will mean that certain companies will always be a shoo-in so there is no incentive to build a proper quality product as they'll get the contract anyway however deplorable it is.

At the end of the day, who cares about how reliable and suitable a train is, all of these are secondary concerns to what the apparent nationality of the train builder is. At the end of the day the pain will be worth the independence that we will have from those pesky foreigners, right?

You're right that such complaints are worthless, but I would also point out that Bombardier's current record isn't actually much worse than their competitors!

 

[hooverboy]

Oh what a surprise, Bombardier doesn't win a tender or an order and an article comes out saying jobs are at risk at the 'British' company because the 'foreign company' has won it.

The thing that annoys me about articles like this is that Bombardier can have a deplorable record of not delivering a flexible or quality product on time and this is never mentioned because they are apparently British, and if we go down the road of only buying something based on it's nationality then that will mean that certain companies will always be a shoo-in so there is no incentive to build a proper quality product as they'll get the contract anyway however deplorable it is.

At the end of the day, who cares about how reliable and suitable a train is, all of these are secondary concerns to what the apparent nationality of the train builder is. At the end of the day the pain will be worth the independence that we will have from those pesky foreigners, right?

bombardier are canadian anyway.

however, in terms of "uk content", it's not just the components that need to be taken into account, it's the other spin-offs in the local economy, which if not done here will fill some other country's coffers-and not just through stock market listings.

seeing as this country is running a trade defecit,it is imperitive to do as much in house as possible.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Will be interesting to see how they’re going to achieve 222 performances in diesel.

 

[Robertj21a]

The western making do with primarily 5 car sets so see no reason why Midland should automatically get 9 cars.

What a strange comment. Have you ever been to Nottingham, or Leicester, or Derby .

 

[The Nomad]

Oh what a surprise, Bombardier doesn't win a tender or an order and an article comes out saying jobs are at risk at the 'British' company because the 'foreign company' has won it.

Especially as the accompanying picture has a worker with Bombardier's motto in, err, French...

 

[Kneedown]

Will be interesting to see how they’re going to achieve 222 performances in diesel.

A colleague of mine who is now in the Operational Standards dep, informs me that the AT300 platform is very flexible and capable of delivering what is required. On a personal note, having just made the move from local to mainline side, i'm looking forward to having a play on them!

 

[samuelmorris]

Especially as the accompanying picture has a worker with Bombardier's motto in, err, French...

That is amazing and highlights how daft this is perfectly. Meanwhile in Newton Aycliffe, Goole and Newport...

 

[ohgoditsjames]

A colleague of mine who is now in the Operational Standards dep, informs me that the AT300 platform is very flexible and capable of delivering what is required. On a personal note, having just made the move from local to mainline side, i'm looking forward to having a play on them!

That’s interesting, do you think that it could be a case of an additional powered car or uprated engines? An additional engine creates problems of it’s own with the diminishing returns and additional weight etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That's actually the case? I'm certain when the 800s were first announced they put out a detailed diagram illustrating which components were UK-sourced and it was ultimately equal or better to what Bombardier units had at the time, in terms of '% UK content'.

I think the main difference will be the bodyshells, which Bombardier can produce in the UK, whereas Hitachi has to fabricate them abroad.
There are many UK-specific small-ish components which both companies can source in the UK.
But the guts of the trains (eg power packs, bogies, traction systems) will all come from abroad.
The TMS system is also critical, but I couldn't tell you where the manufacturers get that from.

 

[irish_rail]

What a strange comment. Have you ever been to Nottingham, or Leicester, or Derby .

Yes. And for large parts of the day 5 car trains would suffice perfectly on certain services.

 

[Prestige15]

I won't be suprise if Bombardier makes legal actions against them as they always do and complaining that their jobs will be at risk etc even though they already have a large order book with Greater Anglia, London Overground, SWR, WMT and C2C.

Bit disappointed that they didnt win as i was pretty keen to see how their bi train would be like but cant have things going your way everytime

 

[Kneedown]

That’s interesting, do you think that it could be a case of an additional powered car or uprated engines? An additional engine creates problems of it’s own with the diminishing returns and additional weight etc.

I'm not an engineer, nor am I privy to the details of what can be done, but I would imagine it would be a combination of additional engines (as discussed previously elsewhere) all engines being remapped/uprated. Quite a few of the 222's i've been on these past few weeks have had an engine out here and there, with little detriment to performance.

 

[ashworth]

Yes. And for large parts of the day 5 car trains would suffice perfectly on certain services.

5 car trains may be sufficient on a few current off peak services but not on the majority of services or would it allow for future growth. Please can we not have yet another XC Voyager of TPE Class 185 situation where in a few years time we end up with severe overcrowding on short trains which cannot be extended.

Sheffield, Nottingham, Leicester and Derby need full size inter city trains just like Birmingham, Coventry and Wolverhampton have in the West Midlands. It is not good on long journeys to be squashed in like sardines in short formed trains with no space for passengers to spread out or to store their luggage. Travelling conditions on XC is appalling just because so many people are squeezed into such a small space. That is not what is needed on the MML. For once can there be provision for future growth.

 

[cnjb8]

5 car trains may be sufficient on a few current off peak services but not on the majority of services or would it allow for future growth. Please can we not have yet another XC Voyager of TPE Class 185 situation where in a few years time we end up with severe overcrowding on short trains which cannot be extended.

Sheffield, Nottingham, Leicester and Derby need full size inter city trains just like Birmingham, Coventry and Wolverhampton have in the West Midlands. It is not good on long journeys to be squashed in like sardines in short formed trains with no space for passengers to spread out or to store their luggage. Travelling conditions on XC is appalling just because so many people are squeezed into such a small space. That is not what is needed on the MML. For once can there be provision for future growth.

We never seem to learn from our mistakes. The fact that people think that EM to London isn't intercity is unbelievable. Theirs a 3 hour drive from Nottingham, probably the same on a train.

 

[HSTEd]

HS2 is going to rip the heart out of MML intercity traffic if phase 2 is built. Just as it will for the ECML.

Sheffield traffic will be gone, as will a large fraction of Derby and Nottingham traffic, and the latter will get even more competition from Bingham terminators using ECML paths.

At that point the vehicle count looks generous.

 

[Japan0913]

I think the main difference will be the bodyshells, which Bombardier can produce in the UK, whereas Hitachi has to fabricate them abroad.
There are many UK-specific small-ish components which both companies can source in the UK.
But the guts of the trains (eg power packs, bogies, traction systems) will all come from abroad.
The TMS system is also critical, but I couldn't tell you where the manufacturers get that from.

There is a Japanese article that says "there is a problem to extend Newton AYcliffe to make from a body shell.".
https://toyokeizai.net/articles/-/281831?page=4
In fact, the extension seems to have been decided.

Any further reading is stopped.

What is the factory after the end of production of IEP vehicles?
https://toyokeizai.net/articles/-/281831?page=4

As LNER adoption continues, GWR plans to replace older models with IEP vehicles by the end of the month.
One concern is the Newton AYcliffe plant's production plan after the IEP vehicle is finished.

Mitsuo Iwasaki, chief of the Kasado plant's vehicle design division, said,
"At present, the order backlog of AT 300, a general-purpose vehicle of the same type as IEP, has reached over 1000 vehicles.".

At present, however, the Newton-Aiklyff plant is only in charge of importing the building structure and finishing it, leaving the problem of "In the future, we want to be able to manufacture vehicles from scratch, as is the case with the Kasado plant and the (Acquired in 2015) Italian plant.".


IEP車両製造終了後の工場は？
LNERへの導入が進むとともに、GWRでは今月中に旧型車両が一掃されてIEP車両に置き換わる予定だ。
そうなると、気になるのがIEP車両製造終了後のニュートンエイクリフ工場の生産計画だ。

これについて笠戸事業所車両設計本部の岩崎充雄本部長は
「現在、IEPと同型のAT300と呼ばれる汎用車両の受注残は1000両以上に達している」と述べ、当面の工場運営には不安がないことを強調している。

ただ、現状でニュートンエイクリフ工場は構体を輸入し最終の仕上げを行う作業を担うにとどまっており、
「今後は、笠戸事業所や（2015年に買収した）イタリア工場のように、車両をゼロから作れるようにしたい」といった課題も残されている。

 

[samuelmorris]

HS2 is going to rip the heart out of MML intercity traffic if phase 2 is built. Just as it will for the ECML.

Sheffield traffic will be gone, as will a large fraction of Derby and Nottingham traffic, and the latter will get even more competition from Bingham terminators using ECML paths.

At that point the vehicle count looks generous.

Assuming HS2 is built of course. Also bear in mind that those effects won't fully take hold until phase 2 of HS2, by which time there may well have been plenty of growth (and indeed this new stock will be approaching the middle of its life).

 

[edwin_m]

5 car trains may be sufficient on a few current off peak services but not on the majority of services or would it allow for future growth. Please can we not have yet another XC Voyager of TPE Class 185 situation where in a few years time we end up with severe overcrowding on short trains which cannot be extended.

Sheffield, Nottingham, Leicester and Derby need full size inter city trains just like Birmingham, Coventry and Wolverhampton have in the West Midlands. It is not good on long journeys to be squashed in like sardines in short formed trains with no space for passengers to spread out or to store their luggage. Travelling conditions on XC is appalling just because so many people are squeezed into such a small space. That is not what is needed on the MML. For once can there be provision for future growth.

It's a tricky one to call.

The current Nottingham fast is a HST in most hours, and has ample spare capacity off-peak and normally some seats available even in the peak, which probably isn't that much different from other intercity routes. But this will remain the primary link to Nottingham at least for the duration of the new franchise so some growth will be expected (offset to some degree by the loss of Megabus) and I'd expect to see full-length sets in use all day.

The Nottingham semi is a 5-car off-peak and again normally has seats available except between Bedford and London where not surprisingly people use it in preference to Thameslink. With more seating per set and assuming Wellingborough and Bedford (and maybe some Kettering) stops are transferred to the Corby trains, there will be some space for growth here even if they remain as 5-car off-peak. Being commuter-orientated they are more peaky so this would require doubling up in the peaks as they do today.

I don't normally use the Sheffield trains but from reports on here they sometimes get quite crowded. But a 9-car 80x will boost capacity over a 7-car 222 - it will be interesting to see if they choose to lengthen the other Sheffield service which is normall a 5-car.

HS2 is going to rip the heart out of MML intercity traffic if phase 2 is built. Just as it will for the ECML.

Sheffield traffic will be gone, as will a large fraction of Derby and Nottingham traffic, and the latter will get even more competition from Bingham terminators using ECML paths.

At that point the vehicle count looks generous.

Assuming HS2 is built of course. Also bear in mind that those effects won't fully take hold until phase 2 of HS2, by which time there may well have been plenty of growth (and indeed this new stock will be approaching the middle of its life).

The vehicle count will be determined purely on the basis of the current franchise, which finishes well before HS2 phase 2. Otherwise the East Coast order would have been cut back because HS2 eventually takes Leeds passengers too.

HS2 will probably take most London-Sheffield/Chesterfield and some London-Derby/Nottingham passengers but won't take any Leicester passengers and there will still be intermediate journeys. So I don't see the long-term MML service pattern changing that much, except that one or two of the trains may run to Toton instead.

 

[Jozhua]

Getting real tired of seeing that every time a contract doesn't go their way.

In total agreement, can't we have some confidence in our businesses, hasn't the Derby plant just been responsible for manufacturing all of the Cross Rail trains?

Sure it seems a bit counterintuitive that the Derby works doesn't build the Derby trains but well, Bombardier appears to focus on electric trains rather than diesel. Perhaps the Telegraph proposes everyone get out and push halfway along the track...

Excited for the announcement on Tuesday, an 80X seems like a sensible option, that can quickly be introduced into service. It's been done to death that they "can't match the timings of 222's" disregarding the fact that they're probably faster on electric and the HSTs are frequently used on the route and are slowed down even more by their slam doors.

 

[43055]

It's a tricky one to call.

The current Nottingham fast is a HST in most hours, and has ample spare capacity off-peak and normally some seats available even in the peak, which probably isn't that much different from other intercity routes. But this will remain the primary link to Nottingham at least for the duration of the new franchise so some growth will be expected (offset to some degree by the loss of Megabus) and I'd expect to see full-length sets in use all day.

The Nottingham semi is a 5-car off-peak and again normally has seats available except between Bedford and London where not surprisingly people use it in preference to Thameslink. With more seating per set and assuming Wellingborough and Bedford (and maybe some Kettering) stops are transferred to the Corby trains, there will be some space for growth here even if they remain as 5-car off-peak. Being commuter-orientated they are more peaky so this would require doubling up in the peaks as they do today.

I don't normally use the Sheffield trains but from reports on here they sometimes get quite crowded. But a 9-car 80x will boost capacity over a 7-car 222 - it will be interesting to see if they choose to lengthen the other Sheffield service which is normall a 5-car.

Using a 5 car on the Sheffield (1331 ex London) yesterday it was quite crowded and people were standing north of Leicester. I think the Nottingham fasts can get busy with megabus at East Midlands Parkway but that is about it. Going south last Sunday on a 7 car it was also every busy and this can even be full using a HST. Hopefully the capacity issue can be addressed.

 

[Robertj21a]

HS2 is going to rip the heart out of MML intercity traffic if phase 2 is built. Just as it will for the ECML.

Sheffield traffic will be gone, as will a large fraction of Derby and Nottingham traffic, and the latter will get even more competition from Bingham terminators using ECML paths.

At that point the vehicle count looks generous.

HS2 phase2 is so far away, and/or unlikely to proceed, that we can probably safely ignore that aspect. Even so, I'm not sure that it would 'rip the heart out' of the MML. Many Derby/Nottingham passengers will probably stick to the MML, so it's only Sheffield really (and that's not in the Midlands anyway !).