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Flooding Disruption 31 July/1 August

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_toommm_

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TPE will be operating an emergency timetable for the next 3 days.

Sheffield to Manchester every hour (xx:11), calling Meadowhall, Huddersfield, Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield, Stalybridge and Manchester Piccadilly.
Manchester to Sheffield every hour (xx:17), calling at Stalybridge, Greenfield, Marsden, Slaithwaite, Huddersfield and Sheffield.

Basically merging the Sheffield onto a Huddersfield stopper.

Services from Cleethorpes will terminate Doncaster.


Starting with this service this evening:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y00091/2019/08/02/advanced

EDIT: Although nothing seems to be moving in the Moorthorpe area for some reason...
 
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While service disruption from the Whaley Bridge emergency is understandable, chaotic (and contradictory) presentation of information, days after the start of the problem, is not.

At the time of writing, National Rail's journey planner is offering trains Sheffield-Hope (and onwards to Manchester) at 1214 and 1314 today (but no other times) - their notes say that the line is closed all day. In one section of the notes they say that road conditions to the Hope valley are unsuitable for replacement buses. In another, they say that passengers can catch local service buses (without any comment on ticket availability).

I have lost the energy to try battling through National Rail or TOCs to try and get timely correction of errors. NR were useless last time I tried to tell them about a fundamental "leaves-before-it-arrives" error - only corrected when I wrote to my MP (who was Transport Secretary at the time). Emails to TOCs get the promise of a response within 20 working days (ie best end of a month).

Is there any simple way of flagging up errors, with a realistic expectation of timely action? Or an organisation with a brief to worry about this sort of contempt for customer interests?
 

ashworth

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I need to travel on Monday from Alfreton to Manchester. I presume it will be ok to get a Northern train from Alfreton up to Leeds and then change there for a TPE or Northern train to Manchester. There’s no information on EMT website about ticket acceptance from Alfreton or Chesterfield. I’m not bothered how long the journey will take I just need my ticket to be accepted.
 

_toommm_

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I need to travel on Monday from Alfreton to Manchester. I presume it will be ok to get a Northern train from Alfreton up to Leeds and then change there for a TPE or Northern train to Manchester. There’s no information on EMT website about ticket acceptance from Alfreton or Chesterfield. I’m not bothered how long the journey will take I just need my ticket to be accepted.

I can imagine so - maybe speak to the guard before so they know what you're doing, and don't think you're trying it on.
 

Greybeard33

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If you check RTT nothing is moving through the area. There is a train service from Manchester to Marple. In the East freight is running from Hope towards Sheffield. The only freight train running from Peak Forest/Tunstead is to Brigg Sidings according to RTT.
Today, Saturday 3rd, RTT shows that a freight has run from Peak Forest to the MML via Chinley and the Hope Valley, http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R03922/2019/08/03/advanced. Four more freights are scheduled along this line later today (STP schedules activated).
 

_toommm_

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And the STP services from Sheffield to Manchester via Huddersfield are not running Sheffield to Huddersfield due to the problems with the OHLE in the Fitzwilliam/Wakefield area.

According to NRE, Crosscountry services are currently suspended between Wakefield and Kings X :D
 

yorksrob

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And the STP services from Sheffield to Manchester via Huddersfield are not running Sheffield to Huddersfield due to the problems with the OHLE in the Fitzwilliam/Wakefield area.

According to NRE, Crosscountry services are currently suspended between Wakefield and Kings X :D

I noticed everything via Wakefield Westgate seemed to be cancelled from Leeds this morning. That'll explain it.
 

furnessvale

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It’s worth pointing out that the suspension of services (Hope Valley/Buxton) was ordered by the Police, rather than the TOC’s/NR doing it themselves.

And due to a number of road closures, Rail replacement buses are unable to operate in some areas.
I wonder what powers the police are using to order such a closure, especially as the authority that knows about such matters, the EA, has produced maps showing that the Hope Valley line will be unaffected by any breach of the dam?
 

matacaster

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And the STP services from Sheffield to Manchester via Huddersfield are not running Sheffield to Huddersfield due to the problems with the OHLE in the Fitzwilliam/Wakefield area.

According to NRE, Crosscountry services are currently suspended between Wakefield and Kings X :D

Could TPE run service Man -Sheffield via Penistone line, taking next available normal service slot on that line and using Northern driver from that service for route knowledge?
 

30907

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I wonder what powers the police are using to order such a closure, especially as the authority that knows about such matters, the EA, has produced maps showing that the Hope Valley line will be unaffected by any breach of the dam?

I doubt if an EA flood plain map is intended to cover a catastrophic breach on this scale.

BBC NW news at 1830 last night posted a map showing that, in the event of a dam burst, there would be an impact as far as Stockport.

That is far more plausible, given the volume of water the Goyt would be carrying.
 

_toommm_

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Could TPE run service Man -Sheffield via Penistone line, taking next available normal service slot on that line and using Northern driver from that service for route knowledge?

I'm not too sure if the 185s have been cleared via the Penistone line to be honest.
 

Tomnick

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I wonder what powers the police are using to order such a closure, especially as the authority that knows about such matters, the EA, has produced maps showing that the Hope Valley line will be unaffected by any breach of the dam?
I’ve seen a video somewhere on social media showing the substantial volume of water being shifted by the Goyt as they try to reduce the level in the reservoir. I’m sure that’s the main concern as far as the Hope Valley is concerned, the risk of that strong flow affecting the various river crossings. I understand that both signal boxes in New Mills have been evacuated too though, and indeed the road serving New Mills South appears to be closed, which might be where the Police have influenced matters!
 

Greybeard33

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I doubt if an EA flood plain map is intended to cover a catastrophic breach on this scale.

BBC NW news at 1830 last night posted a map showing that, in the event of a dam burst, there would be an impact as far as Stockport.

That is far more plausible, given the volume of water the Goyt would be carrying.
Quite. The red area on the EA map is intended to indicate where there is "danger to life" from the dam, not the full extent of flooding. It strains credulity that a million litres of water would miraculously stop when it reached the bridge under the A6.

There have been reports of evacuations downstream from the red zone, in Furness Vale and New Mills:
Officers say properties that lie within the flood risk area outside Whaley Bridge have been evacuated, including homes in Furness Vale and New Mills.
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/toddbrook-reservoir-whaley-bridge-dam-3164576
 

Mathew S

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I wonder what powers the police are using to order such a closure, especially as the authority that knows about such matters, the EA, has produced maps showing that the Hope Valley line will be unaffected by any breach of the dam?
In the circumstances, I doubt that specific police powers are an issue. The experts are saying there's a serious risk to life, that's enough to close it. The police's job in these incidents is largely communication and coordination, ie. telling the railway what the experts are saying.
I doubt if an EA flood plain map is intended to cover a catastrophic breach on this scale.

BBC NW news at 1830 last night posted a map showing that, in the event of a dam burst, there would be an impact as far as Stockport.

That is far more plausible, given the volume of water the Goyt would be carrying.
The EAs own map shows the potential for impact on the railway as far north as Rose Hill/Marple, though as I understand it the main concerns are in and around New Mills, and the tunnel. Either way, from what I heard in work yesterday about how long the dam may take to make safe, I think reopening on Tuesday morning may be optimistic.
 

furnessvale

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In the circumstances, I doubt that specific police powers are an issue. The experts are saying there's a serious risk to life, that's enough to close it. The police's job in these incidents is largely communication and coordination, ie. telling the railway what the experts are saying.

The EAs own map shows the potential for impact on the railway as far north as Rose Hill/Marple, though as I understand it the main concerns are in and around New Mills, and the tunnel. Either way, from what I heard in work yesterday about how long the dam may take to make safe, I think reopening on Tuesday morning may be optimistic.
The map showing a serious risk to life STOPS at the A6 embankment at Bridgemont. Why? Because there are two major embankments at Bridgemont which will act as a second and third dam should the first one collapse.

The AMBER warning map shows a potential for flooding which should be monitored. Yesterday there were NINE such amber warnings around the UK. Are all the lines in those affected areas closed?

As for the police telling the railways what the experts are saying.............the railway has its own civil engineers who should be talking direct to the experts not relying on people who should be concentrating on other matters, and I speak as a former railway engineer AND a former police officer!
 

PHILIPE

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While service disruption from the Whaley Bridge emergency is understandable, chaotic (and contradictory) presentation of information, days after the start of the problem, is not.

At the time of writing, National Rail's journey planner is offering trains Sheffield-Hope (and onwards to Manchester) at 1214 and 1314 today (but no other times) - their notes say that the line is closed all day. In one section of the notes they say that road conditions to the Hope valley are unsuitable for replacement buses. In another, they say that passengers can catch local service buses (without any comment on ticket availability).

I have lost the energy to try battling through National Rail or TOCs to try and get timely correction of errors. NR were useless last time I tried to tell them about a fundamental "leaves-before-it-arrives" error - only corrected when I wrote to my MP (who was Transport Secretary at the time). Emails to TOCs get the promise of a response within 20 working days (ie best end of a month).

Is there any simple way of flagging up errors, with a realistic expectation of timely action? Or an organisation with a brief to worry about this sort of contempt for customer interests?

There is nobody now in overall charge due to the fragmentation of the industry. The industry has been plagued with the information problem for years now, especially in times of disruption when the demand for information, and correct information, is greater. TOCs can't even get it right now internally, regularly seeing posts from passengers on Twitter who are being advised to contact staff when they reach somewhere or other and then the person comes back to say the staff know nothing about the matter because nobody has told them.
Anyway, I seem to be starting another topic now so will shut up.
 

Mathew S

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The map showing a serious risk to life STOPS at the A6 embankment at Bridgemont. Why? Because there are two major embankments at Bridgemont which will act as a second and third dam should the first one collapse.

The AMBER warning map shows a potential for flooding which should be monitored. Yesterday there were NINE such amber warnings around the UK. Are all the lines in those affected areas closed?

As for the police telling the railways what the experts are saying.............the railway has its own civil engineers who should be talking direct to the experts not relying on people who should be concentrating on other matters, and I speak as a former railway engineer AND a former police officer!
I'm sure all of those people are talking to each other. The issue is that a catastrophic failure of the dam isn't going to be contained by those embankments (or that's the concern as I understand it from colleagues who've spent much of the last two days in Whaley Bridge). Frankly, this is a case of better safe than sorry.
 

furnessvale

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I'm sure all of those people are talking to each other. The issue is that a catastrophic failure of the dam isn't going to be contained by those embankments (or that's the concern as I understand it from colleagues who've spent much of the last two days in Whaley Bridge). Frankly, this is a case of better safe than sorry.
One last reply then I am out.

The EA map shows the area under threat to life and it stops at Bridgemont. If that is wrong, I, as a resident of Furness Vale, want to know why they are telling lies and putting my life at risk.

On the other hand.......................
 

323 Class

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I think playing safe is the best course of action.
No one can predict what debris could do to the infrastructure downstream. The canal is lockless for a fairly long distance and could act as an additional conduit to carry a huge wave of water as could the Goyt. Walls and channels would be eroded away causing untold land collapse along the way.
 

Mathew S

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One last reply then I am out.

The EA map shows the area under threat to life and it stops at Bridgemont. If that is wrong, I, as a resident of Furness Vale, want to know why they are telling lies and putting my life at risk.

On the other hand.......................
There is a world of difference between "telling lies" and being cautious.
 
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furnessvale

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There is a world of difference between "telling lies" and being cautious.

The EA must be being cautious by NOT telling me of a potential risk if their published map does not show a risk but their private advice to the railway says something different.
 
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furnessvale

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I think playing safe is the best course of action.
No one can predict what debris could do to the infrastructure downstream. The canal is lockless for a fairly long distance and could act as an additional conduit to carry a huge wave of water as could the Goyt. Walls and channels would be eroded away causing untold land collapse along the way.
Someone had better tell my friends living on boats on that very canal under the noses of police officers posted on the A6
 

Greybeard33

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The EA map shows the area under threat to life and it stops at Bridgemont. If that is wrong, I, as a resident of Furness Vale, want to know why they are telling lies and putting my life at risk.
Risk assessments consider the combination of the probability of an event and the impact of that event. In this case there is clearly a reasonable probability that the dam will survive, now the water level has passed its peak. But the impact of a catastrophic failure on Whaley Bridge itself would be devastating. The water level could rise too quickly for people to escape, hence the "risk to life" assessment that has resulted in precautionary evacuation. Further downstream there would be more warning time, the water might rise more slowly to a lesser depth and/or flow less swiftly. This reduces the impact, and so the risk, although the probability is the same.

People trapped in a train could find it more difficult to escape the rising floodwaters than those in buildings or road vehicles - this might make the risk assessment for the railway higher than for the surrounding area.

Unrelated to this specific incident, the Enviroment Agency publishes long term reservoir flood risk maps for reservoirs all over the country. That for Whaley Bridge can be viewed at https://flood-warning-information.s...g=401178.33&northing=381319.65&map=Reservoirs and can be zoomed and panned to view Furness Vale, New Mills and other places downstream. The "detailed view" enables the predicted depth and speed of the floodwater to be viewed, as well as the extent.

This map shows the worst case flood risk from any of the reservoirs in the area, including Combes and Fernilee, so may well be pessimistic in respect of Toddbrook. Nevertheless it indicates a potential for flooding right down the Goyt and Mersey valleys, through Marple, Stockport and Ashton upon Mersey, up to the discharge of the Mersey into the Ship Canal at Carrington. With these rivers already at a high level, it would not take much extra water for them to overtop their floodbanks.
 
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furnessvale

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Risk assessments consider the combination of the probability of an event and the impact of that event. In this case there is clearly a reasonable probability that the dam will survive, now the water level has passed its peak. But the impact of a catastrophic failure on Whaley Bridge itself would be devastating. The water level could rise too quickly for people to escape, hence the "risk to life" assessment that has resulted in precautionary evacuation. Further downstream there would be more warning time, the water might rise more slowly to a lesser depth and/or flow less swiftly. This reduces the impact, and so the risk, although the probability is the same.

People trapped in a train could find it more difficult to escape the rising floodwaters than those in buildings or road vehicles - this might make the risk assessment for the railway higher than for the surrounding area.

Unrelated to this specific incident, the Enviroment Agency publishes long term reservoir flood risk maps for reservoirs all over the country. That for Whaley Bridge can be viewed at https://flood-warning-information.s...g=401178.33&northing=381319.65&map=Reservoirs and can be zoomed and panned to view Furness Vale, New Mills and other places downstream. The "detailed view" enables the predicted depth and speed of the floodwater to be viewed, as well as the extent.

This map shows the worst case flood risk from any of the reservoirs in the area, including Combes and Fernilee, so may well be pessimistic in respect of Toddbrook. Nevertheless it indicates a potential for flooding right down the Goyt and Mersey valleys, through Marple, Stockport and Ashton upon Mersey, up to the discharge of the Mersey into the Ship Canal at Carrington. With these rivers already at a high level, it would not take much extra water for them to overtop their floodbanks.
Excellent post which amply demonstates that pre-emptive closure of the Hope Valley line, NOT the Buxton line, is unnecessay at this stage. Just how much water needs to come out of that dam to flood the Hope Valley line?
 

Tomnick

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Apparently than comes from the font of all engineering knowledge, a police officer.
Just because the general advice to the public happens to mention that this is the doing of the Police, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is actually so.
Excellent post which amply demonstates that pre-emptive closure of the Hope Valley line, NOT the Buxton line, is unnecessay at this stage. Just how much water needs to come out of that dam to flood the Hope Valley line?
I’ve seen at least one internal message referring to the risk of scour affecting the integrity of underbridges, quite possibly as a result of the strong flows that are already being experienced as the reservoir is drained as quickly as possible, as I’ve suggested upthread. I’ve seen a video of very substantial volumes of water shifting through New Mills. I’d suggest that the concerns are perfectly valid.
 

furnessvale

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Just because the general advice to the public happens to mention that this is the doing of the Police, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is actually so.

I’ve seen at least one internal message referring to the risk of scour affecting the integrity of underbridges, quite possibly as a result of the strong flows that are already being experienced as the reservoir is drained as quickly as possible, as I’ve suggested upthread. I’ve seen a video of very substantial volumes of water shifting through New Mills. I’d suggest that the concerns are perfectly valid.
Fully agree and the second the dam shows signs of movement all trains are stopped, even before the water reaches New Mills, let alone starts to undermine the viaduct.

I ask again, the area where the line is, is subject to an amber alert as are 8 other areas in the UK. Are the lines closed in these other areas? PLease don't say the water at New Mills could rise catastrophically because if it can then the danger warning from the EA needs changing from Amber to risk to life.
 

Mathew S

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Fully agree and the second the dam shows signs of movement all trains are stopped, even before the water reaches New Mills, let alone starts to undermine the viaduct.

I ask again, the area where the line is, is subject to an amber alert as are 8 other areas in the UK. Are the lines closed in these other areas? PLease don't say the water at New Mills could rise catastrophically because if it can then the danger warning from the EA needs changing from Amber to risk to life.
I'm beginning to wonder whether you're being deliberately obtuse.

The police aren't the ones making risk determinations. They do, however, have the job of communicating those recommendations to other agencies (including the railway) involved in the incident. In the specific case of the Hope Valley line, expert advice was communicated, by the police, to the railway. That's how the process is supposed to work.

You now appear to be suggesting that it's best to wait until there is visible damage to critical infrastructure (e.g. bridges) before closing that infrastructure. Rarely, if ever, have I encountered such blinding stupidity. By the time damage is visible, it's too late (if you need an example of that just look at the dam itself).

Continuing to run trains through the Hope Valley is a risk that simply doesn't need to be taken. That's the expert advice, and the railway is right to follow it.
 
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Tomnick

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Fully agree and the second the dam shows signs of movement all trains are stopped, even before the water reaches New Mills, let alone starts to undermine the viaduct.

I ask again, the area where the line is, is subject to an amber alert as are 8 other areas in the UK. Are the lines closed in these other areas? PLease don't say the water at New Mills could rise catastrophically because if it can then the danger warning from the EA needs changing from Amber to risk to life.
It’s not necessarily just about a sudden deluge if the dam lets go - the flow could be strong enough *now* to cause unseen damage, as they’ve got a number of high-volume pumps all working flat out to get water out of the reservoir and into the Goyt.
 
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