Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

[PHILIPE]

If for example it were that the trolley couldn't get down the train due to standing/luggage, then how would anyone expect that to be improved?

The empahsis was on the frequent non-provision aspect. If unable to pass through the train it becomes a static trolley and should be announced

 

[takno]

What's the profit margin?

No idea. Don't especially care.

 

[Master29]

Okay, please back the assertion up with numbers. No, I'm not going to PM you, you made the assertion in public.

It`s not an assertion and I`m not going to entertain you on this. You don`t have to explain everything you say or put on this forum. You raised an issue with this. I have offered you a personal message giving you an explanation concerning Cornwall, it`s place historically as a culture and a tourist centre and you`ve refused. This is not part of this thread anymore so I`m leaving this here.

 

[Mountain Man]

No idea. Don't especially care.

Because to generate the thousands claimed, and which you posted to substantiate, would take tens of thousands in actual sales.

Revenue IS NOT the same profit.

If you sold 500 cups of coffee at 3 pounds. You'll make 1500 pounds revenue. If your profit margin is 5 percent, that's a mere 75 quid profit.

To make thousands from a buffet as has been suggested, will take tens of thousands of pounds in sales.

That's why you should care, your argument completely collapses if you dont

 

[broadgage]

I will let others argue as to whether or not the trolley is profitable and if a buffet would be more or less profitable.
I still maintain that a buffet is part of running a long distance train service even if not directly profitable. An apt comparison might be the provision of an hotel swimming pool. How many hotel swimming pools make a profit ? Almost none, yet they continue to be provided as the provision of a pool is part of running a holiday hotel.

I remain unconvinced by the argument that it was the government rather than FGW who banned buffets. IETs used by other operators have buffets, did the department for transport REALLY single out FGW and say "you cant have a buffet, but anyone else using IETs can have a buffet"

And as for the argument regarding loss of seating capacity, on off peak trains it matters not, and on popular services some standing by choice in the buffet adds capacity. BTW I remember the crowds standing in the large buffets on the Wessex electrics, and enjoying a drink after work in cheerful company.
Some regular commuters making journeys of less than an hour favoured the Wessex Electrics because of the buffet.

 

[Mountain Man]

. An apt comparison might be the provision of an hotel swimming pool. How many hotel swimming pools make a profit ? Almost none, yet they continue to be provided as the provision of a pool is part of running a holiday hotel.

A swimming pool will attract additional sales at a hotel as people choose it over alternatives.

How many choose GWR over the alternatives because it has a buffet?

 

[Master29]

I will let others argue as to whether or not the trolley is profitable and if a buffet would be more or less profitable.
I still maintain that a buffet is part of running a long distance train service even if not directly profitable. An apt comparison might be the provision of an hotel swimming pool. How many hotel swimming pools make a profit ? Almost none, yet they continue to be provided as the provision of a pool is part of running a holiday hotel.

I remain unconvinced by the argument that it was the government rather than FGW who banned buffets. IETs used by other operators have buffets, did the department for transport REALLY single out FGW and say "you cant have a buffet, but anyone else using IETs can have a buffet"

And as for the argument regarding loss of seating capacity, on off peak trains it matters not, and on popular services some standing by choice in the buffet adds capacity. BTW I remember the crowds standing in the large buffets on the Wessex electrics, and enjoying a drink after work in cheerful company.
Some regular commuters making journeys of less than an hour favoured the Wessex Electrics because of the buffet.

Hear hear...

 

[Master29]

A swimming pool will attract additional sales at a hotel as people choose it over alternatives.

How many choose GWR over the alternatives because it has a buffet?

But they don`t though do they and as Broadgage pointed out some people (I count myself in there) would have chosen a train because it had a buffet. I`m sure I`m not alone.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I remain unconvinced by the argument that it was the government rather than FGW who banned buffets. IETs used by other operators have buffets, did the department for transport REALLY single out FGW and say "you cant have a buffet, but anyone else using IETs can have a buffet"

And as for the argument regarding loss of seating capacity, on off peak trains it matters not, and on popular services some standing by choice in the buffet adds capacity.

They didn’t single GWR out as such - the GWR order was the first to be built and the DfT had closed down the design. You have to remember that in those days the DfT thought the train operator was purely their delivery agent for the IEP and you just used what they gave you to run the services they specified.

Hence the rather restrictive IEP TARA and MARA regime. The EC bidders had the opportunity to do up to 12 minor changes, iirc from my bid involvement, and one of them involved catering but not exactly a full buffet, and that micro “offer” is what LNER are going to get.

The DfT were most anxious to see that the 802 units for GWR had the same interior layout as the 800 units. To use a technical term, “they were bricking it”! If they weren’t the same they would not have been authorised.

The DfT are obsessed about peak seat capacity into conurbations and that drives a lot of their thinking when it comes to signing off train designs or signing off new/extra stock.

 

[father_jack]

They didn’t single GWR out as such - the GWR order was the first to be built and the DfT had closed down the design. You have to remember that in those days the DfT thought the train operator was purely their delivery agent for the IEP and you just used what they gave you to run the services they specified.

Hence the rather restrictive IEP TARA and MARA regime. The EC bidders had the opportunity to do up to 12 minor changes, iirc from my bid involvement, and one of them involved catering but not exactly a full buffet, and that micro “offer” is what LNER are going to get.

The DfT were most anxious to see that the 802 units for GWR had the same interior layout as the 800 units. To use a technical term, “they were bricking it”! If they weren’t the same they would not have been authorised.

The DfT are obsessed about peak seat capacity into conurbations and that drives a lot of their thinking when it comes to signing off train designs or signing off new/extra stock.

CY, why did GWR lie about the "market research" in favour of trolleys when the deal was already done. That's something that causes bitterness, and even when not all staff know that was the case.

 

[takno]

Because to generate the thousands claimed, and which you posted to substantiate, would take tens of thousands in actual sales.

Revenue IS NOT the same profit.

If you sold 500 cups of coffee at 3 pounds. You'll make 1500 pounds revenue. If your profit margin is 5 percent, that's a mere 75 quid profit.

To make thousands from a buffet as has been suggested, will take tens of thousands of pounds in sales.

That's why you should care, your argument completely collapses if you dont

They said revenue, I made an argument that they were right about revenue. I'm aware that it's not the same as profit, and I wasn't making or justifying an argument about profit, since frankly I don't care whether they make money on it or not

 

[Mountain Man]

A swimming pool will attract additional sales at a hotel as people choose it over alternatives.

How many choose GWR over the alternatives because it has a buffet?

But they don`t though do they and as Broadgage pointed out some people (I count myself in there) would have chosen a train because it had a buffet. I`m sure I`m not alone.

So you expect passenger figures to fall now?

Because they don't have a buffet and that's why people chose the train

 

[Geoff DC]

Passenger figures from Cornwall could fall, including me as there is an alternative - 3/4 flights a day from Newquay to Heathrow 1hr 10mins and much cheaper than the train

 

[Goldfish62]

Passenger figures from Cornwall could fall, including me as there is an alternative - 3/4 flights a day from Newquay to Heathrow 1hr 10mins and much cheaper than the train

I have considered flying as an alternative to driving because I won't take the train now the service has been downgraded and until the catering and short formations are sorted out. However the major problem is lack of onwards public transport from Newquay Airport. Taxi or hire car both add to the overall cost, so as much as I don't like it, taking my car is the most economical way.

 

[Geoff DC]

You could just drive to the Airport Goldfish - obviously not so pleasant in the summer when the visitors are about

 

[irish_rail]

So you expect passenger figures to fall now?

Because they don't have a buffet and that's why people chose the train

Absolutely, I fully expect passenger numbers to fall on the Cornish route (although I am sure it will increase on the other routes). Doesn't help that the Cornish trains are given the poorest paths in the South East come December, further adding to the discomfort of what is already a long journey. For some people, the lack of proper catering will tip them over the edge. Why take an uncomfortable, fairly slow train with crap catering when for half the price you can take the bus or drive, or even fly.....

 

[Master29]

So you expect passenger figures to fall now?

Because they don't have a buffet and that's why people chose the train

That`s not what I meant and you know it. There were other TOC`s and shorter trains that operated to Penzance you know.

Passenger figures from Cornwall could fall, including me as there is an alternative - 3/4 flights a day from Newquay to Heathrow 1hr 10mins and much cheaper than the train

I`m surprised this isn`t the case. It may well be in years to come given the current situation. I no longer enjoy the journey to Paddington any more and I`m far from alone. Stobart air has upped it` services from Ireland and Southend to Newquay and I`m of the opinion there may be more in coming years. If GWR had competition from Paddington they would have to up their game but sadly, this isn`t going to happen. Driving is also losing it`s appeal as unless you drive at midnight you`re almost certainly going to get hours of queueing during the summer months. Why shouldn`t flying be a much better alternative.

 

[Goldfish62]

You could just drive to the Airport Goldfish - obviously not so pleasant in the summer when the visitors are about

Ah, but I travel from the other end so my car is based near Heathrow, not Newquay.

 

[Mountain Man]

That`s not what I meant and you know it.

So the buffet makes no difference whether you choose you use GWR or not?

If the buffet affects people's decision to use GWR we'll see it in passenger figures.

 

[Mountain Man]

Passenger figures from Cornwall could fall, including me as there is an alternative - 3/4 flights a day from Newquay to Heathrow 1hr 10mins and much cheaper than the train

The Newquay flight is 1 town, not the wide number a train services, and the time doesn't account for getting to and from the airport nor time you need to be there before the flight, nor time occurred when you land

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Absolutely, I fully expect passenger numbers to fall on the Cornish route (although I am sure it will increase on the other routes). Doesn't help that the Cornish trains are given the poorest paths in the South East come December, further adding to the discomfort of what is already a long journey. For some people, the lack of proper catering will tip them over the edge. Why take an uncomfortable, fairly slow train with crap catering when for half the price you can take the bus or drive, or even fly.....

Poorest paths? Most of the Cornish trains are sped up compared to today!

 

[CharlesR]

A reminder of the thread subject, about buffets, not the Cornish services or the new timetable.

 

[broadgage]

I certainly travel less than before the commuter style trains cam in.
Lack of a buffet is one reason, but the general hassle factor and discomfort play a major part also. I am no longer fit enough to stand for a long journey, so the unreliability of the reservation system, and the risks of a half length train on which reservations are void, are also strong disincentives.

On my most recent IET from Cardiff to London, the trolley* was only available* in the other half of the train, and the train manger suggested that those seeking refreshment should change to the other portion at an intermediate stop.
Changing from one portion to the other via the platform and without knowing if seats remain in the portion with an available* trolley, is clearly SO much better than a buffet !

*IET supporters please note my careful choice of wording WRT available trolley. I and others have commented on the trolley "being in the other portion of a 5+5 train" An advocate of IETs suggested that this was incorrect and that each unit has a trolley, supplied by Hitachi. No doubt correct, but totally irrelevant if GWR cant be bothered to staff and stock it.

 

[sprunt]

It`s not an assertion

it`s the largest holiday destination in the UK bar Devon

This is, in fact, an assertion.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/assertion

assertion in British
(əˈsɜːʃən
noun
1.
a positive statement, usually made without an attempt at furnishing evidence
2.
the act of asserting

 

[takno]

The Newquay flight is 1 town, not the wide number a train services, and the time doesn't account for getting to and from the airport nor time you need to be there before the flight, nor time occurred when you land

It's one town in the middle of a rural county where most of the people travelling won't live within easy walking distance of a station. Once you're in a car why wouldn't you just drive to the airport in the middle of the county? If you're leaving your car rather than getting a lift it probably has better parking anyway. At the other end you can throw on an extra half hour to get into London from the airport, but it's hardly going to tip the balance to the point where the train is faster.

If you can get yourself a bite to eat, sit back and relax then the train wins because it's a better way to spend a few hours, but the seats on those trains have already put paid to the idea of sitting back or relaxing. Not being able to get a snack just pushes it completely over the edge

 

[Failed Unit]

A swimming pool will attract additional sales at a hotel as people choose it over alternatives.

How many choose GWR over the alternatives because it has a buffet?

What are the realistic options? Drive? Coach?

I think this is one of the reasons why GWR are doing it, they have no competition. GNER said that on train catering loses a lot of money (that is going back some years) but on the Anglo Scottish route at least they had the air-craft to fight. Some people did select the train because they could get a full meal over the plane as they were using the dead time. I don't know why rail catering does so poorly and airline's treat it as a nice little earner. I used to travel a lot between Edinburgh and Leeds. The route had competition. Cross country which didn't have reliable catering and East Coast that did. I used to chose east coast so it did impact the choice.

Going back to Great Western and the majority of passengers.
Q. Is the journey long enough to real care?
A. London - Cardiff, Bristol probably not, London - Swansea, London - Exeter, London - Worcester and Gloucester (and beyond) possible, London - beyond Exeter yes (but that is a small % of passengers)

Q. What is the alternative?
A. At the moment none - all competing rail services have a similar offer to FGW. You are not going to select XC for a superior catering offer are you? (if the journey you want is possible with them). You could drive what is the bigger hardship traffic or no buffet? You could take the coach but it is not better than the train in terms of refreshments.

I will be interesting if Grand Union will attract people because of the service - but on the east coast the open access operator fight on price and direct trains rather than quality. In fact First groups direct service to Edinburgh will be no thrills.

Although I would be unhappy if LNER had decided they would remove the buffet, I would not stop using the train because if it. I don't understand why they can't make massive profits out of it. Sitting in coach H, very few people use it. But then London - Leeds = 2 hours. you normally have time to kill at kings cross to get what you want rather than the limited offer on the train. I used to use Great Western a lot, but never once used their buffet - the journey I used them for was too short. I may have felt differently if I was going beyond Bristol / Cardiff but they are the routes that make the company the money. Will see what Grand Union do (if they get approved and how the franchised operator reacts)

 

[pt_mad]

What are the realistic options? Drive? Coach?

I think this is one of the reasons why GWR are doing it, they have no competition. GNER said that on train catering loses a lot of money (that is going back some years) but on the Anglo Scottish route at least they had the air-craft to fight. Some people did select the train because they could get a full meal over the plane as they were using the dead time. I don't know why rail catering does so poorly and airline's treat it as a nice little earner. I used to travel a lot between Edinburgh and Leeds. The route had competition. Cross country which didn't have reliable catering and East Coast that did. I used to chose east coast so it did impact the choice.

Going back to Great Western and the majority of passengers.
Q. Is the journey long enough to real care?
A. London - Cardiff, Bristol probably not, London - Swansea, London - Exeter, London - Worcester and Gloucester (and beyond) possible, London - beyond Exeter yes (but that is a small % of passengers)

Q. What is the alternative?
A. At the moment none - all competing rail services have a similar offer to FGW. You are not going to select XC for a superior catering offer are you? (if the journey you want is possible with them). You could drive what is the bigger hardship traffic or no buffet? You could take the coach but it is not better than the train in terms of refreshments.

I will be interesting if Grand Union will attract people because of the service - but on the east coast the open access operator fight on price and direct trains rather than quality. In fact First groups direct service to Edinburgh will be no thrills.

Although I would be unhappy if LNER had decided they would remove the buffet, I would not stop using the train because if it. I don't understand why they can't make massive profits out of it. Sitting in coach H, very few people use it. But then London - Leeds = 2 hours. you normally have time to kill at kings cross to get what you want rather than the limited offer on the train. I used to use Great Western a lot, but never once used their buffet - the journey I used them for was too short. I may have felt differently if I was going beyond Bristol / Cardiff but they are the routes that make the company the money. Will see what Grand Union do (if they get approved and how the franchised operator reacts)

I can't help thinking this poster makes a really interesting point re not many viable alternatives for journeys beyond Exeter or to Swansea. Or rather, not alternatives which could become the preferred option simply for the reason there's a trolley service rather than a buffet. Simple supply and demand I guess. And more seats means more room for more customers.

 

[takno]

I can't help thinking this poster makes a really interesting point re not many viable alternatives for journeys beyond Exeter or to Swansea. Or rather, not alternatives which could become the preferred option simply for the reason there's a trolley service rather than a buffet. Simple supply and demand I guess. And more seats means more room for more customers.

So you didn't read the other posts pointing out all the other options then? There is also the option of just not bothering for a lot a visitors to the area

 

[pt_mad]

So you didn't read the other posts pointing out all the other options then? There is also the option of just not bothering for a lot a visitors to the area

I did and I'm an advocate for the buffet as can be seen above. But the point of which of the available alternative options to Cornwall would you choose simply and purely because the buffet is now a trolley - I think that's the point the poster was making. And imo the lack of buffet vice trolley wouldn't by itself make the decision to take another mode of trabsport in most cases. Pure opinion of course.

 

[Master29]

A reminder of the thread subject, about buffets, not the Cornish services or the new timetable.

A mod now are we?

So you expect passenger figures to fall now?

Because they don't have a buffet and that's why people chose the train

When did I say that? I said I`d choose a service that had a buffet instead of one that didn`t, and there maybe other factors that might make people seek another mode of transport. Flying in the case I mention.

I never said they would fall. They may or may not. Even if not that doesn`t mean the service is good. We put up with crap service all the time in this country, hence the reason GWR and the Daft don`t give a toss about the W of E.