Making PAYG journeys when a Travelcard is already held

[jumble]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...or-my-travelling-history.185502/#post-4131830

I am still baffled about what is going on here

If I have a zone 2 to 6 season and lots of PAYG and travel from Turnham Green to Rayners lane I could go on the District PICC or I could in a moment of madness go via Earls Court Edgware Rd and Baker Street and on the MET having never left the system or touched anywhere so I will not be charged any extra on my oyster for going via zone 1

Question for all the esteemed experts
If I am stopped on the platform at Baker street is there is going to be a problem?
I don't think so
If I had no payg balance would this make a difference or is this like TFL Rail Replacement busses where you should have an oyster to show even if you do not touch in or out and thus are never charged?
I cannot see this is any different to what the OP has done and really hope that assistance from MikeWH can sort what I believe to be stupidity out.

 

[MikeWh]

If you have a zone 2-6 season and plenty (at least £2.40) of credit then you will not encounter problems if checked at Baker Street. If you had less than £2.40 then you might have the lack of credit mentioned. TfL are happy for you to touch out and go negative because they have your deposit and they know you'll need to top up before you can use the Oyster card again, including within the zones of the travelcard.

It is slightly different to the case in the original thread because the system really ought to be charging an extension fare in that case. The fact that it isn't is not the customers fault, it is whoever programmed the "with travelcard" fare for that journey.

 

[PeterC]

One thing that Mike didn't mention is that if you spend excessive time within the system your journey may time out and you could be charged for two incomplete journeys.

 

[Starmill]

TfL are happy for you to touch out and go negative because they have your deposit and they know you'll need to top up before you can use the Oyster card again, including within the zones of the travelcard.

There have previously been a number of reported cases of TOCs issuing Penalty Fares in these circumstances - is this still standard practice? This is the reason I still have auto top-up turned on on my card, although I find the use of it quite inconvenient when I have a significant balance stored in the card rather than in my bank account where I'd like it. I cannot use Contactless PAYG because there is still no way to use a railcard.

 

[Tom B]

One thing that Mike didn't mention is that if you spend excessive time within the system your journey may time out and you could be charged for two incomplete journeys.

I think this is slightly different if a travelcard is held, though? I have a Z12 annual and not touching in or out results in a question mark in the history but no supplement charged.

 

[PeterC]

I think this is slightly different if a travelcard is held, though? I have a Z12 annual and not touching in or out results in a question mark in the history but no supplement charged.

The OP is travelling beyond the validity of their travelcard. The times to remain in the system are quite generous but I assume that if the time between touch in (within travelcard validity) and touch out (outside travecard validity) exceeded the valid time for the journey it would record as an incomplete travelcard journey and an incompete PAYG journey. The OP was suggesting some esoteric routings which is why I brought the subject up.

 

[MikeWh]

There have previously been a number of reported cases of TOCs issuing Penalty Fares in these circumstances - is this still standard practice? This is the reason I still have auto top-up turned on on my card, although I find the use of it quite inconvenient when I have a significant balance stored in the card rather than in my bank account where I'd like it. I cannot use Contactless PAYG because there is still no way to use a railcard.

Yes, this is the main difference between the TfL conditions for Oyster and the NR conditions for Oyster. NR insists that you must have enough money for the journey you are making. I have two problems with this: (1) it takes away the ability to spontaneously change your plans; and (2) it doesn't actually protect revenue if the person then touches out because the TOC gets the money regardless of whether the card ends up negative or not.

The OP is travelling beyond the validity of their travelcard. The times to remain in the system are quite generous but I assume that if the time between touch in (within travelcard validity) and touch out (outside travecard validity) exceeded the valid time for the journey it would record as an incomplete travelcard journey and an incompete PAYG journey. The OP was suggesting some esoteric routings which is why I brought the subject up.

Yes, MJTs still apply. If the journey is half in, half out, one incomplete journey would be charged.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, this is the main difference between the TfL conditions for Oyster and the NR conditions for Oyster. NR insists that you must have enough money for the journey you are making. I have two problems with this: (1) it takes away the ability to spontaneously change your plans; and (2) it doesn't actually protect revenue if the person then touches out because the TOC gets the money regardless of whether the card ends up negative or not.

Thank you for your clarification. I would like to see this policy changed. I might even write to my MP about it, although I doubt very much that they would be able to influence anything, and I might struggle to explain it in accurate but accessible language. Still, it might be interesting to see what sort of response they get.

 

[some bloke]

Thank you for your clarification. I would like to see this policy changed. I might even write to my MP about it, although I doubt very much that they would be able to influence anything, and I might struggle to explain it in accurate but accessible language. Still, it might be interesting to see what sort of response they get.

Another problem is that people may well assume it works the TfL way on NR.

How would the companies get round the problem of someone using a £5 Oyster to make a much more expensive journey and throwing it away, perhaps daily? It's perhaps understandable that TfL wouldn't want to charge, say, £15 to buy it.

 

[RJ]

Another problem is that people may well assume it works the TfL way on NR.

How would the companies get round the problem of someone using a £5 Oyster to make a much more expensive journey and throwing it away, perhaps daily? It's perhaps understandable that TfL wouldn't want to charge, say, £15 to buy it.

The maximum fare structure is more complicated than it once was which will catch people out at journey's end if there are manned barriers - https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay...-and-oyster/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out

There are journeys which cost more than the current deposit + minimum fare. My guess is that some opportunists might abuse this situation but then there are a lot of deposits which are never reclaimed, or are partially abandoned for good when people go into a negative balance and stop using the card. I'm sure there's some complex formula to calculate the optimal deposit to charge for the greater good as the Oyster network grows.

In recent years it has become increasingly common for beggars to ask for Oyster cards instead of money, so they can cash in and pocket the deposit!