I was detained and reported for my travelling history.

[PoorGuy]

Hi All!

First of all, I want to thank everyone who is here to help, I really appreciate your time.

I want to start from mentioning that my English is not perfect as I started to learn it only couple of years ago. So I’m sorry in forward for any misunderstandings.

The reason I’m here is that I’ve been stopped by a ticket inspector during my trip to Central London. The (lady) inspector asked me to show her my ticket. I did it. She checked the ticket and kept walking down the train. I understood that it’s all OK, because I had an Oyster Card with enough credits to cover my journey and the Travel Card for zones 3-5. A minute or less later she came back with another (man) inspector and the lady told me that I don’t have a valid ticket with me and I have only two options:

1. Pay the fine of £20; or

2. To be reported, prosecuted and pay the way bigger fine.

I was shocked, but after I heard that I might be prosecuted for some reason – I politely agreed to pay £20. At that moment I did not understand, why my ticket is not valid and why they are threatening me to be prosecuted. So I’ve asked how I can be punished when I have a valid ticket. I was told that it was because of my travel history. I asked again, why I’m being detained now for my travel history, and how can they prove anything based on it (as it doesn’t show who was travelling or what route has been used..). At this point, the lady inspector told me: “You’ve just lost your chance to use the option no.1 and now you will be reported and prosecuted. You can keep acting”… While the man inspector was very polite and tried to make this all as less problematic as possible, but the lady inspector looked very pissed off by me (for some reason), took my questions personally like a challenge and didn’t want to hear anything about paying the fine (I told them that I can do that there). Anyway, so then the man inspector explained me that I was travelling by using the route through Central London (I have to change my train in London Bridge station), but my travel card covered only zones 3-5 and I needed it for zones 1-5. The funny thing is that I did not know this.. I thought that my travel card only has to cover zones I'm using it in. But he explained me that I have to exit and enter the station using my Oyster card if I need to change the train... My travel history shows that I was travelling from the station in zone 3 to the station in zone 5 with the travel card for zones 3-5, but inspectors claimed that I was changing a train in London Bridge station and that’s why my travel card is not valid..?? After talking with them and reading this forum – now I understand.. But still, how can someone who newly came to this country know all the rules of using public transport.. I did not want to evade anything or save money, I was pretty sure that my travel card covers my journey, just because I’ve been asked to provide my ticket like for 5 times before and inspectors did not have any problems with it (only one time I got a fine of £20, probably the same reason, but I did not understand it at that moment and the inspector did not explain it normally). So, let me get back to my original story.. So these 2 inspectors detained me for 30min. or so, just because they were re-writing my travel history on their report. At the time I still had some questions to ask, because I thought that it is a very serious case (as they were threatening me with the prosecution) and wanted to know everything. So again, I asked about evidence, how can they prove it, what the process is waiting for me. And the lady inspector became super rude, she called it “pathetic” that I was asking all those questions and reminded me that I’m again trying to be “the smartest around here” and she is not talking to me any more. At this point I decided that they are rude with me with no reason and I didn’t deserve it, so I will not cooperate with them filling the report. So they did a questioning about my travel history and I told that “I’m not telling this” or “I don’t remember”. It was all written down and I signed it. The last but not least, they gave me to sign the report/ticket and the reason they’ve put on it was “Travelling without a valid ticket”. In my opinion it was not right as I had a valid ticket (I was charged from my Oyster card when I left the station after all this) at the time they checked me and I did not agree to sign on that. Hope I did not make a mistake.

To be honest, I was shocked by the attitude of this lady inspector, I’ve never expected to be treated like a criminal for a simple imbroglio, it doesn’t matter I was right or wrong. She was very rude and took it personally, she also declined to answer to my questions and was not helpful for me to understand the situation even it was quite clear that my English is not very good and I struggle to understand and even speak in this stressful situation. I still can’t get this out of my head and it is killing me.

1. What should I do next? Should I contact a solicitor for a legal help?

2. Do they have an authority to detain me when I have a valid ticket, just because they think that my travel history looks sketchy to them? Is it legal?

3. Is it possible that I can be prosecuted? Even if I paid for my travel card, just I’ve chosen the wrong one, NOT ON PURPOSE.

Thanks!

 

[najaB]

1. What should I do next? Should I contact a solicitor for a legal help?

In my opinion it's too early to contact a solicitor since you don't know what (of anything) you are being accused of.

2. Do they have an authority to detain me when I have a valid ticket, just because they think that my travel history looks sketchy to them? Is it legal?

They have the authority, but rarely exercise it, to detain you if you refuse to give your name and address. However, I don't believe that they could have issued a penalty fare in the circumstances you described.

3. Is it possible that I can be prosecuted? Even if I paid for my travel card, just I’ve chosen the wrong one, NOT ON PURPOSE.

Yes, it's possible but equally it's possible that you will be able to solve the matter without going to court.

 

[cuccir]

As you now know, you need a travelcard to cover all the zones you travel through, not just those you start/end in.

Train companies can be a little slow in processing this. It is often a few weeks or months until they write to you - though if they want to prosecute they must inform the court within 6 months of the event.

Until you hear from them, the best thing you can do is put this to the back of your mind; when you do here more, please come back to here and we will try to advise.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi All!

First of all, I want to thank everyone who is here to help, I really appreciate your time.

I want to start from mentioning that my English is not perfect as I started to learn it only couple of years ago. So I’m sorry in forward for any misunderstandings.

The reason I’m here is that I’ve been stopped by a ticket inspector during my trip to Central London. The (lady) inspector asked me to show her my ticket. I did it. She checked the ticket and kept walking down the train. I understood that it’s all OK, because I had an Oyster Card with enough credits to cover my journey and the Travel Card for zones 3-5. A minute or less later she came back with another (man) inspector and the lady told me that I don’t have a valid ticket with me and I have only two options:

1. Pay the fine of £20; or

2. To be reported, prosecuted and pay the way bigger fine.

I was shocked, but after I heard that I might be prosecuted for some reason – I politely agreed to pay £20. At that moment I did not understand, why my ticket is not valid and why they are threatening me to be prosecuted. So I’ve asked how I can be punished when I have a valid ticket. I was told that it was because of my travel history. I asked again, why I’m being detained now for my travel history, and how can they prove anything based on it (as it doesn’t show who was travelling or what route has been used..). At this point, the lady inspector told me: “You’ve just lost your chance to use the option no.1 and now you will be reported and prosecuted. You can keep acting”… While the man inspector was very polite and tried to make this all as less problematic as possible, but the lady inspector looked very pissed off by me (for some reason), took my questions personally like a challenge and didn’t want to hear anything about paying the fine (I told them that I can do that there). Anyway, so then the man inspector explained me that I was travelling by using the route through Central London (I have to change my train in London Bridge station), but my travel card covered only zones 3-5 and I needed it for zones 1-5. The funny thing is that I did not know this.. I thought that my travel card only has to cover zones I'm using it in. But he explained me that I have to exit and enter the station using my Oyster card if I need to change the train... My travel history shows that I was travelling from the station in zone 3 to the station in zone 5 with the travel card for zones 3-5, but inspectors claimed that I was changing a train in London Bridge station and that’s why my travel card is not valid..?? After talking with them and reading this forum – now I understand.. But still, how can someone who newly came to this country know all the rules of using public transport.. I did not want to evade anything or save money, I was pretty sure that my travel card covers my journey, just because I’ve been asked to provide my ticket like for 5 times before and inspectors did not have any problems with it (only one time I got a fine of £20, probably the same reason, but I did not understand it at that moment and the inspector did not explain it normally). So, let me get back to my original story.. So these 2 inspectors detained me for 30min. or so, just because they were re-writing my travel history on their report. At the time I still had some questions to ask, because I thought that it is a very serious case (as they were threatening me with the prosecution) and wanted to know everything. So again, I asked about evidence, how can they prove it, what the process is waiting for me. And the lady inspector became super rude, she called it “pathetic” that I was asking all those questions and reminded me that I’m again trying to be “the smartest around here” and she is not talking to me any more. At this point I decided that they are rude with me with no reason and I didn’t deserve it, so I will not cooperate with them filling the report. So they did a questioning about my travel history and I told that “I’m not telling this” or “I don’t remember”. It was all written down and I signed it. The last but not least, they gave me to sign the report/ticket and the reason they’ve put on it was “Travelling without a valid ticket”. In my opinion it was not right as I had a valid ticket (I was charged from my Oyster card when I left the station after all this) at the time they checked me and I did not agree to sign on that. Hope I did not make a mistake.

To be honest, I was shocked by the attitude of this lady inspector, I’ve never expected to be treated like a criminal for a simple imbroglio, it doesn’t matter I was right or wrong. She was very rude and took it personally, she also declined to answer to my questions and was not helpful for me to understand the situation even it was quite clear that my English is not very good and I struggle to understand and even speak in this stressful situation. I still can’t get this out of my head and it is killing me.

1. What should I do next? Should I contact a solicitor for a legal help?

2. Do they have an authority to detain me when I have a valid ticket, just because they think that my travel history looks sketchy to them? Is it legal?

3. Is it possible that I can be prosecuted? Even if I paid for my travel card, just I’ve chosen the wrong one, NOT ON PURPOSE.

Thanks!

I'm slightly unclear as to why they are saying your ticket was invalid. If you have an Oyster which has sufficient Pay as you Go credit, you can simply tap in at your origin and tap out at your destination, tapping at pink readers on the way where they are present. You will then always be charged the correct fare. This remains the case regardless of what Travelcards you hold - everything will be automatically calculated for you by the system.

So is it the case that you didn't tap in or out, failure to do which would would invalidate the use of the Oyster card outside the covered Travelcard area? Or am I missing something.

 

[theironroad]

Lack of language knowledge and time living in the country is not going to be a defence in law as far as I'm aware...

I'd be interested to hear others thoughts, especially those who qualified to talk, but while ticket inspectors can often withdraw a ticket/card for investigation (and issue a suitable document to complete a journey) , they must have legally specified powers to 'detain' someone against there will who wishes to leave. I'm afraid perceived rudeness won't count for much in a court, possibly in a very sensitive customer service department.

 

[MikeWh]

The reason I’m here is that I’ve been stopped by a ticket inspector during my trip to Central London. The (lady) inspector asked me to show her my ticket. I did it. She checked the ticket and kept walking down the train. I understood that it’s all OK, because I had an Oyster Card with enough credits to cover my journey and the Travel Card for zones 3-5. A minute or less later she came back with another (man) inspector and the lady told me that I don’t have a valid ticket with me

Can you give a little more detail about the journey you were making and how much credit you had on your Oyster card. If you can copy a chunk of your journey history that would help me to explain what has happened. If you can't access history then please say what your normal commute is.

I'm guessing that you were stopped by Southeastern inspectors. They have history of acting in a dubious way when it comes to Oyster cards. They might be in the right here, but I'd like to be able to assure you that they are and to explain exactly what the problem is.

 

[furlong]

Yes, the most crucial piece of information is - Did you touch in at the start of your journey? If you can obtain your journey history that will help us (either by registering online to view it, or by using a ticket machine that displays it and taking a photo). We have seen other threads on this forum where inspectors made mistakes and the passenger was right.

 

[island]

The key question here is whether your Oyster card was touched in and out at the start and end of your journeys. A zone 3-5 Travelcard isn’t valid at London Bridge, but if you have touched in and out then you will be charged the extra fare at the end of your trip.

We do need to know more specifics about the journey though to be able to give you a good answer.

 

[the chairman]

Hi PG. Are you from Italy?

 

[Deerfold]

Hi PG. Are you from Italy?

I think you'll be lucky to get a reply. He hasn't logged in for a week or answered any of the questions that might help people give him better answers.

 

[hkstudent]

If PG is back, I would like to mention the following:
If you have touched in at the starting station, you are safe and cannot be accused and prosecuted.
With regarding the point of the man inspector saying you have to touch in and out when changing trains (at London Bridge), that's wrong as there's no requirement of that in Oyster. Though it may end up making some trips from zone 3-6 to zone 3-6 be charged zone 3-6 journey rather than zone 1-6 journey due to the oyster fare waypoint defect of via Lewisham.
(Example: Westcombe Park to Sidcup / Bexleyheath, default fare is zone 3-5, no matter you via London Bridge or Lewisham or Dartford)

They can't put a charge on you by that.

 

[najaB]

If PG is back, I would like to mention the following:
If you have touched in at the starting station, you are safe and cannot be accused and prosecuted.

I'm not sure that is the case.

 

[dcsprior]

I'm not sure that is the case.

I thought (from reading other threads on here) that the customer's responsibility extended as far as:

• Having plenty of PAYG credit (appreciate this isn't mentioned in the post you're replying to)
• Touching in at the start of their journey
• Touching out (in this case, the customer was stopped before getting to that) at the end of their journey

If TfL assumes their route is one which costs them less (£0 + season ticket in this case?) than the one actually taken I didn't think that was the customer's responsibility?

 

[najaB]

I thought (from reading other threads on here) that...

You're basically correct. But that is rather different from:

If you have touched in at the starting station, you are safe and cannot be accused and prosecuted.

 

[hkstudent]

You're basically correct. But that is rather different from:

If OP has sufficient credit loaded in the oyster card and touched in at origin station, then there should no case can be put against OP

 

[jumble]

If OP has sufficient credit loaded in the oyster card and touched in at origin station, then there should no case can be put against OP

With the crucial word being IF
Until we know if inspector checked the ticket with a machine for a touch in before discussing issuing a PF then all other comments are pretty irrelevant?
The OP has been silent on this question

 

[PoorGuy]

Hi All,

I'm so sorry I did not respond in so long. Was on my holiday trip.. Sorry.

Also want to thank to everyone for your opinion and help! Appreciate that!

I just got back and already contacted the Fraud department. Now we are arranging the meeting and will speak about my situation..

As you now know, you need a travelcard to cover all the zones you travel through, not just those you start/end in.

Train companies can be a little slow in processing this. It is often a few weeks or months until they write to you - though if they want to prosecute they must inform the court within 6 months of the event.

Until you hear from them, the best thing you can do is put this to the back of your mind; when you do here more, please come back to here and we will try to advise.

Now I know it.. When I was buying my season tickets I checked the zones my stations are in, that is why I bought zone 3-5.. Now I know it was wrong.. I've got a letter in a week or so, by the way.

I'm slightly unclear as to why they are saying your ticket was invalid. If you have an Oyster which has sufficient Pay as you Go credit, you can simply tap in at your origin and tap out at your destination, tapping at pink readers on the way where they are present. You will then always be charged the correct fare. This remains the case regardless of what Travelcards you hold - everything will be automatically calculated for you by the system.

So is it the case that you didn't tap in or out, failure to do which would would invalidate the use of the Oyster card outside the covered Travelcard area? Or am I missing something.

That's why I did not agree that I don't have a valid ticket. I always checking in and out and I always have some credits on my Oyster to cover any trip if I need as sometimes I need to go to the other office or so.. Also I have payed for the trip they detained me as I checked out on London Bridge station and payed with my Oyster Card Credits..

Can you give a little more detail about the journey you were making and how much credit you had on your Oyster card. If you can copy a chunk of your journey history that would help me to explain what has happened. If you can't access history then please say what your normal commute is.

I'm guessing that you were stopped by Southeastern inspectors. They have history of acting in a dubious way when it comes to Oyster cards. They might be in the right here, but I'd like to be able to assure you that they are and to explain exactly what the problem is.

I had more than £10. My normal journey was from Lee to East Croydon. Sometimes I was taking other route and was not going through London Bridge..

My history for example:

The key question here is whether your Oyster card was touched in and out at the start and end of your journeys. A zone 3-5 Travelcard isn’t valid at London Bridge, but if you have touched in and out then you will be charged the extra fare at the end of your trip.

We do need to know more specifics about the journey though to be able to give you a good answer.

Like I mentioned above, I've always checked in and out in my stations, I've never tried to cheat or anything like this, it's just a commute to the work.. It happened that their system was not working well and it did not charge me any extra fare. Also, I've been checked couple of times on trains before and nobody told me that my ticket was invalid (this pisses me the most!).

Hi PG. Are you from Italy?

Unfortunately I'm not

If PG is back, I would like to mention the following:
If you have touched in at the starting station, you are safe and cannot be accused and prosecuted.
With regarding the point of the man inspector saying you have to touch in and out when changing trains (at London Bridge), that's wrong as there's no requirement of that in Oyster. Though it may end up making some trips from zone 3-6 to zone 3-6 be charged zone 3-6 journey rather than zone 1-6 journey due to the oyster fare waypoint defect of via Lewisham.
(Example: Westcombe Park to Sidcup / Bexleyheath, default fare is zone 3-5, no matter you via London Bridge or Lewisham or Dartford)

They can't put a charge on you by that.

I don't know. They are saying that they suspect me of a fraud and they can prosecute me. How can I defend myself, I don't know.

You're basically correct. But that is rather different from:

If OP has sufficient credit loaded in the oyster card and touched in at origin station, then there should no case can be put against OP

But they are already investigating it as a fraud..

With the crucial word being IF
Until we know if inspector checked the ticket with a machine for a touch in before discussing issuing a PF then all other comments are pretty irrelevant?
The OP has been silent on this question

Sorry for being away.. They have checked me during my journey. Then they have detained me and reported me. Only then I left the station and payed for my trip, this is how it looks like on my Oyster history:

Fraud investigation department says that the problem is with my travel history as I was using an invalid season ticket multiple times. I did not know that. Inspectors have checked me couple of times during the same journey before and did not say anything about it.. And I trusted the system, I though they will charge me for any extra fares automatically and I don't need to think about it. But it looks like that this system is broken..

Thanks for any help and opinion and have a nice evening.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks for all the clarification. This is an interesting case. If you genuinely have touched in at the start of every journey and touched out at the end of every journey then you have done nothing wrong. The Oyster system has decided to charge nothing. If Southeastern are not happy with that then they need to dispute the matter with TfL. Please feel free to start a conversation with me on this matter. I'm just a bit further down the (Sidcup) line from you and I'd be happy to meet up and go through everything that's been said/written etc.

 

[MikeWh]

Also, there are other ways that you can make this journey that avoid zone 1. One is actually valid in just zone 3-5. Train to Lewisham, Train to Elmers End, Tram to East Croydon. It may take a bit longer, but you'll avoid the crush at London Bridge and definitely won't get questioned about your travelcard.

 

[cuccir]

I'd very much advise PoorGuy to take up MikeWh's offer to meet up to talk this through - he is the leading expert on all this Oyster.

 

[yorkie]

I'd very much advise PoorGuy to take up MikeWh's offer to meet up to talk this through - he is the leading expert on all this Oyster.

Agreed. @PoorGuy please do take this offer up!

Until we have further updates I will lock this thread for now.

If anyone wishes to discuss the wider issues, please use this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/making-payg-journeys-when-a-travelcard-is-already-held.187287/

 

[MikeWh]

Update:

I met with @PoorGuy yesterday and confirmed that he'd done absolutely everything right. This morning I raised the issue with TfL and this afternoon Poorguy received confirmation from GTR that the case was being dropped. We're both delighted.

The other good news is that he's now only taking the train between Catford Bridge and Elmers End with a bus at one end and the tram at the other. This means he now only needs a zone 3-4 travelcard and the journey is a lot less stressful.

 

[ashkeba]

Well done @MikeWh and another black mark for GTR!

 

[MikeWh]

... and another black mark for GTR!

I wouldn't be that quick. This was a somewhat unusual situation*. As soon as they've fully understood what's happened they have dropped the case. I think I'd call it a learning opportunity for both GTR and TfL.

*I get many queries as to why people are charged a PAYG fare on top of their travelcard, eg Croydon to Richmond via Clapham Junction. This is the first time I've been aware of a case where the system was undercharging in this way (ie there is no way to travel from Lee to East Croydon by rail only without at least using zone 2).

 

[trivran]

(ie there is no way to travel from Lee to East Croydon by rail only without at least using zone 2).

I'm not sure this is strictly true - one could go Lee - Hither Green - Petts Wood - Herne Hill - Streatham - East Croydon. Obviously extremely convoluted (and perhaps would even time one out?).

 

[furlong]

I wouldn't be that quick.

I would. If the card was touched in and there was plenty of PAYG credit then they shouldn't ever have made threats of penalty fares or prosecution. It really is that simple. If they haven't yet issued an apology to the OP, promised to retrain their staff on these matters and offered to pay a significant amount of compensation to the OP for the unnecessary distress they caused - reread the initial post - I hope that letter is already in the post. If it doesn't arrive, the OP should complain to the head of the company (or seek the advice of a solicitor regarding a civil claim). I'd have thought an offer to renew the travelcard for a year free-of-charge would be the least they would be offering given the appalling way this was apparently handled.

 

[furlong]

To be clear, if touched in with enough PAYG credit I don't see any grounds for a penalty fare so that shouldn't even have been mentioned. And can a concern about the amount the system charged for previous journeys really justify the conduct described - including a 30 minute detention - as reasonable? I wouldn't rule out the possibility that an intention of one or more of the inspectors to cause alarm or distress through threatening words or behaviour might reasonably be alleged, so the company ought to be behaving pretty nicely to try to agree a settlement.

 

[Starmill]

I think I'd call it a learning opportunity for both GTR and TfL.

I agree... but. There is responsibility to get it right on the part of the train operator here. If they aren't certain there is a proper case to issue a Penalty Fare or allege crimes, they mustn't do so. The technical details seem to have been dealt with properly and promptly, including of course with your assistance. But the problem here originates from the attitude of the operator.

If I wrongly accused someone of a crime in my job, I'd be sure to be fired.

As you've highlighted, there's no responsibility on the OP to get anything thechnical right - only to carefully follow the conditions of their ticket, which they were doing.

 

[furlong]

To go back to the original questions

1. What should I do next? Should I contact a solicitor for a legal help?

Perhaps, if you're not satisfied with the resolution and are not offered an appropriate level of compensation for the distress they appear to have caused you, or you could try to ask for a police investigation.

2. Do they have an authority to detain me when I have a valid ticket, just because they think that my travel history looks sketchy to them? Is it legal?

You should have been told you were free to leave at any point.

3. Is it possible that I can be prosecuted? Even if I paid for my travel card, just I’ve chosen the wrong one, NOT ON PURPOSE.

No, but if your description is accurate, the inspectors may have put themselves at risk of prosecution - the usual get-out of "the passenger brought it upon himself by his conduct" doesn't appear to be present.

 

[farleigh]

A good outcome - well done Mike Wh