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Hunt for woman who 'burst into train driver's cabin to complain about delays'

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6Gman

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The Nottingham Post article says....

...in relation to when she got into the cab. She says the driver shouted at her, which, if he did, he shouldn't have, but I suspect he may have been a bit annoyed about the whole incident and someone coming into his cab may have been the last straw for him. In no way here am I defending the driver shouting at the passenger if he did do such a thing.

-Peter

But there's "shouting" and "shouting" isn't there? It could range from speaking loudly and firmly to yelling. I would expect a driver who suddenly had his door forced open to respond with at least the former. Which the other person might interpret as "shouting".
 
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bramling

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I think you might be right :D.



And if you can’t see how someone barging into a train cab after a 10 minute delay - thereby committing a criminal act - is not a customer service matter then there’s little point discussing it any further.



It’s increasingly obvious where the bias is coming from on this thread!


Absolutely.

The reason posters on this thread have an idea what might have happened is the result of experience. People will have seen, either as passengers themselves in an observing capacity or as railway staff dealing with such situations, occasions where all the announcements in the world have been made, yet someone still chooses to play the arse and whip up trouble. Perhaps because they're intoxicated, perhaps because they're simply impatient, or perhaps because they're just one of those people pre-disposed to being troublemaker.

Bursting into a private cab and giving the driver a mouthful of abuse is not a normal reaction to what appears to have been a quite minor delay. The fact that this woman seems to have no doubts about her actions even after having had time to reflect away from the heat of the moment says it all really.
 

Sprinter107

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Absolutely.

The reason posters on this thread have an idea what might have happened is the result of experience. People will have seen, either as passengers themselves in an observing capacity or as railway staff dealing with such situations, occasions where all the announcements in the world have been made, yet someone still chooses to play the arse and whip up trouble. Perhaps because they're intoxicated, perhaps because they're simply impatient, or perhaps because they're just one of those people pre-disposed to being troublemaker.

Bursting into a private cab and giving the driver a mouthful of abuse is not a normal reaction to what appears to have been a quite minor delay. The fact that this woman seems to have no doubts about her actions even after having had time to reflect away from the heat of the moment says it all really.
That's absolutely right.
 

Robertj21a

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I think you might be right :D.



And if you can’t see how someone barging into a train cab after a 10 minute delay - thereby committing a criminal act - is not a customer service matter then there’s little point discussing it any further.



It’s increasingly obvious where the bias is coming from on this thread!

It's no wonder that those of us that *don't* work on the railways tend to despair, and usually give up posting.
 

Peter C

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But there's "shouting" and "shouting" isn't there? It could range from speaking loudly and firmly to yelling. I would expect a driver who suddenly had his door forced open to respond with at least the former. Which the other person might interpret as "shouting".
Fair point. I think that the driver may have been a bit louder than the woman was expecting and she thought that was him "shouting".

-Peter
 

Shaw S Hunter

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(My bold)
There have been many cases in the past when someone has said that there were no announcements only to be found lying because they didn't hear them - so many it would take me years to write them down! There is no reason for as to why this incident is not another one of those cases.
The guard, unless they were sick of their job and wanted to be fired, would not have just sat around. They would have made announcements. They wouldn't have been updating passengers every second, but every few minutes would suffice.
I have seen the photos of Mrs. Buchanan on the Nottingham Post article, and, as bad as it may make me sound, I'm going to agree here. In all honesty, the way she appears in the two CCTV images does speak for itself. People may say I'm horrible for saying this, but I think we can all say that we think the same thing.
RTT is showing the following for the 2W26 2053 Nottingham - Mansfield Woodhouse:
View attachment 66881

-Peter
The train was only 6 mins late by the time it got to

The RTT readout gives a big clue as to what really happened. This particular service is booked to wait 7 1/2 minutes at Bestwood Park Jn due to it being the transition point from double to single track and a southbound service occupying the single line. Naturally if the southbound train is delayed then that wait is extended. I suspect that what really wound up the woman was the fact the train had stopped "in the middle of nowhere" and she didn't understand why. Of course it would provide re-assurance to occasional passengers when such situations arise but I doubt many guards are going to make such announcements each and every time they work a service which is scheduled to make such a stop.

The reporting of the incident as having occurred at Hucknall station I suspect is wrong but to give the actual location would be meaningless to almost everyone reading it. As such she has forced her way into a live driving cab, a location which is safety critical to the extent that even other members of qualified traincrew are subject to conditions/restrictions when entering. There is a reason why there are signs on cab doors designating them as "Private" or "No Entry". There may have been mitigating circumstances but ultimately what she did was wrong and to take zero action against her would set a potentially dangerous precedent.
 

Peter C

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The RTT readout gives a big clue as to what really happened. This particular service is booked to wait 7 1/2 minutes at Bestwood Park Jn due to it being the transition point from double to single track and a southbound service occupying the single line. Naturally if the southbound train is delayed then that wait is extended. I suspect that what really wound up the woman was the fact the train had stopped "in the middle of nowhere" and she didn't understand why. Of course it would provide re-assurance to occasional passengers when such situations arise but I doubt many guards are going to make such announcements each and every time they work a service which is scheduled to make such a stop.

The reporting of the incident as having occurred at Hucknall station I suspect is wrong but to give the actual location would be meaningless to almost everyone reading it. As such she has forced her way into a live driving cab, a location which is safety critical to the extent that even other members of qualified traincrew are subject to conditions/restrictions when entering. There is a reason why there are signs on cab doors designating them as "Private" or "No Entry". There may have been mitigating circumstances but ultimately what she did was wrong and to take zero action against her would set a potentially dangerous precedent.
A very good point there - I assumed that the train at stopped in the station, but in actual fact, as you said, it probably happened at Bestwood Park Jn. The guard was therefore correct in his/her choice to not make an announcement, if it's something they do every day (or near enough).

-Peter

EDIT: As you say, there a number of restrictions about even traincrew being in the cab of a train, so having some random member of the public (admittedly a fare-paying passenger, but that's not relevant here really) burst in and then start hurling verbal abuse at the driver must be dealt with in the ways mentioned above (but only the sensible ones!).
 

bramling

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The RTT readout gives a big clue as to what really happened. This particular service is booked to wait 7 1/2 minutes at Bestwood Park Jn due to it being the transition point from double to single track and a southbound service occupying the single line. Naturally if the southbound train is delayed then that wait is extended. I suspect that what really wound up the woman was the fact the train had stopped "in the middle of nowhere" and she didn't understand why. Of course it would provide re-assurance to occasional passengers when such situations arise but I doubt many guards are going to make such announcements each and every time they work a service which is scheduled to make such a stop.

The reporting of the incident as having occurred at Hucknall station I suspect is wrong but to give the actual location would be meaningless to almost everyone reading it. As such she has forced her way into a live driving cab, a location which is safety critical to the extent that even other members of qualified traincrew are subject to conditions/restrictions when entering. There is a reason why there are signs on cab doors designating them as "Private" or "No Entry". There may have been mitigating circumstances but ultimately what she did was wrong and to take zero action against her would set a potentially dangerous precedent.

Excellent post. I hadn't picked up that the train had a few minutes pathing time booked. I'd say this all provides a pretty comprehensive account of what happened. I'd still be surprised if no announcement was made by the guard at any point, but it is of course quite likely that a "we will be waiting here until another train clears the line ahead" message might have been made (and ignored) fairly early on, with little need for any further update.
 

Bromley boy

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Bursting into a private cab and giving the driver a mouthful of abuse is not a normal reaction to what appears to have been a quite minor delay. The fact that this woman seems to have no doubts about her actions even after having had time to reflect away from the heat of the moment says it all really.

I’d be interested to know how she was able to get the door open.

The stock I sign has sturdy metal doors separating the cab from the saloon. The passenger doors are fitted with egresses so there’s no need for the cab-saloon doors to be openable from the outside, even in an emergency, so the design prioritises security (I know that isn’t the case on the tube).

Absent a key, or the door not properly being secured, it would take some serious going to force one of them open. The door not being properly closed seems a likely explanation - ours are notorious for looking closed while resting on the latch, and swinging open just when you least expect it!
 

Peter C

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I’d be interested to know how she was able to get the door open.

The stock I sign has sturdy metal doors separating the cab from the saloon. The passenger doors are fitted with egresses so there’s no need for the cab-saloon doors to be openable from the outside, even in an emergency, so the design prioritises security (I know that isn’t the case on the tube).

Absent a key, or the door not properly being secured, it would take some serious going to force one of them open. The door not being properly closed seems a likely explanation - ours are notorious for looking closed while resting on the latch, and swinging open just when you least expect it!
Also, do the cab doors on the stock involved open inwards or outwards from the saloon?
Surely if Mrs. Buchanan could open the door, it must have been on some sort of catch*.

-Peter

*Not being sexist in any way here - just that it would have been difficult for anyone to open the door with brute force, especially of it opens outwards into the saloon!
 

TheEdge

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15x doors are not the sturdiest doors ever built, it's doesn't take a tremendous amount of force to open them.
 

Sprinter107

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I’d be interested to know how she was able to get the door open.

The stock I sign has sturdy metal doors separating the cab from the saloon. The passenger doors are fitted with egresses so there’s no need for the cab-saloon doors to be openable from the outside, even in an emergency, so the design prioritises security (I know that isn’t the case on the tube).

Absent a key, or the door not properly being secured, it would take some serious going to force one of them open. The door not being properly closed seems a likely explanation - ours are notorious for looking closed while resting on the latch, and swinging open just when you least expect it!
Not the case mate with 153s etc. Its so easy to open the cab doors. They arent that secure. I think on some of the units, they may have been upgraded, but generally it's not that hard to get them open. When we had 150/2s on our routes, the locks didn't work, so passengers could and would walk in.
 

HotelNovember

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It's no wonder that those of us that *don't* work on the railways tend to despair, and usually give up posting.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just taking away from your anti-rail staff stance, is there a situation away from the railway where this kind of behaviour would be acceptable then?

You can defend this woman all you want, and slag the staff off all your want. The woman’s behaviour wasn’t acceptable, I’m not asking for a hefty fine, police caution, custodial sentence, but I don’t see how anyone can justify this behaviour.
 

Peter C

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:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just taking away from your anti-rail staff stance, is there a situation away from the railway where this kind of behaviour would be acceptable then?

You can defend this woman all you want, and slag the staff off all your want. The woman’s behaviour wasn’t acceptable, and I don’t see how anyone can justify it.
Exactly - if the woman had done this sort of thing on a plane, at thousands of feet in the air, she wouldn't be receiving all of this support here.

-Peter
 

Bromley boy

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Not the case mate with 153s etc. Its so easy to open the cab doors. They arent that secure. I think on some of the units, they may have been upgraded, but generally it's not that hard to get them open. When we had 150/2s on our routes, the locks didn't work, so passengers could and would walk in.

Thanks for the clarification.

That strikes me as pretty poor when you consider that driving cabs are used both for their intended purpose and as a refuge for other staff if they are in physical danger.

Maybe this case can be used to justify beefing them up a bit!
 

Peter C

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Thanks for the clarification.

That strikes me as pretty poor when you consider that driving cabs are used both for their intended purpose and as a refuge for other staff if they are in physical danger.

Maybe this case can be used to justify beefing them up a bit!
It probably will be used as a reason to make cab doors more, well, substantial: surely the unions will be up in arms over that!
However, in all honesty, if the safety of rail staff is compromised all because of a poorly-made door for a cab, something is seriously wrong and the unit should be looked at in more detail.

-Peter
 

HotelNovember

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Exactly - if the woman had done this sort of thing on a plane, at thousands of feet in the air, she wouldn't be receiving all of this support here.

-Peter

Doesn’t have to be on a plane, it’s anyone’s place of work, a coffee shop, a bank, etc. There’s no way in the world this behaviour is acceptable (or normal).
 

Sprinter107

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The 150/1 were always very secure and passengers couldnt get into the cab. The other 15X were not secure. Nowadays, its only the 153s that I work that are not so secure. All the other units have secure cab doors.
 

Peter C

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Doesn’t have to be on a plane, it’s anyone’s place of work, a coffee shop, a bank, etc. There’s no way in the world this behaviour is acceptable (or normal).
Fair point - if I went to work and someone came up to me and shouted at me for apparently not doing my job properly when I was actually doing what I was paid to do, I would be livid and would hope that the person who caused the incident would be dealt with in the correct manner, with this way of dealing with them being a ban from that area. In this case, the railway, even for a small amount of time.

-Peter
 

Peter C

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The 150/1 were always very secure and passengers couldnt get into the cab. The other 15X were not secure. Nowadays, its only the 153s that I work that are not so secure. All the other units have secure cab doors.
I wonder if after this event the rail industry will try and get this changed - the other 15x units work around a large area of the country and if they are compromising staff safety and security there is something very, very wrong.

-Peter
 

Sprinter107

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I would think if that lady had have burst into any private area, eg Council Offices, Supermarket, police station, shexwouldve bern dealt with appropriately, but it seems that certain people regard rail staff as being easy targets.
 

Peter C

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I would think if that lady had have burst into any private area, eg Council Offices, Supermarket, police station, shexwouldve bern dealt with appropriately, but it seems that certain people regard rail staff as being easy targets.
The railway always seems to be seen by the public as "fair game" for committing crimes - graffiti, fare evasion, etc. You don't hear of any people harassing bus drivers, do you, but people seem to get into train cabs and annoy the drivers quite often!
We really need to start teaching people about why the railway is not a playground and why if they are not sensible around them there will be consequences.

-Peter
 

Rockhopper

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Re PA announcements that may or may not have been made by the guard - I travel on this line fairly regularly, on some sets it’s almost impossible to hear the PA even on a nearly empty train, the quality is just dreadful.
 

Tetchytyke

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The RTT readout gives a big clue as to what really happened.

Hmm, OpenTrainTimes shows that the train left Hucknall a few minutes late and terminated at Newstead 45 minutes late, the train being cancelled for the rest of the way.

I'm not sure if the incident happened at Newstead not Hucknall, it wpuld make more sense. Also note the 20 minute wait at Bestwood. On a hot busy train that will feel like an eternity. And the fact it's a 7 minute booked wait makes it more likely that the crew didn't make an announcement. Why would they? To them a long wait is normal there.

https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C85174/2019-06-29

As RTT only goes back 7 days, I'm not sure what info @PeterC is showing.
 
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bramling

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I’d be interested to know how she was able to get the door open.

The stock I sign has sturdy metal doors separating the cab from the saloon. The passenger doors are fitted with egresses so there’s no need for the cab-saloon doors to be openable from the outside, even in an emergency, so the design prioritises security (I know that isn’t the case on the tube).

Absent a key, or the door not properly being secured, it would take some serious going to force one of them open. The door not being properly closed seems a likely explanation - ours are notorious for looking closed while resting on the latch, and swinging open just when you least expect it!

Must admit I’m surprised to hear there’s doors which can be readily opened, either by design or force. Clearly not stock used in the London area!

There was a cab break-in on LU about a year ago, the result of which was upgrading the security from cardboard covers to glass over the door handles. Being an emergency exit it’s never been practicable to have locked cab doors. The incident kicked up an absolutely almighty stink, quite rightly so, with the glass covers appearing within days. From what I understand there’s a workstream (what an awful word!) in place to attempt to develop a better long-term solution.

In the case of the Angel incident my understanding is it was someone attempting to seek refuge from an armed fight, which to me is possibly one of the few reasons why someone might reasonably seek refuge in a cab, albeit it’s still a pretty undesirable and unsatisfactory situation for numerous obvious reasons.

I have visions of armour-plates doors being required in some parts of London before too much longer if things carry on as they are! ;)
 

Tetchytyke

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she wouldn't be receiving all of this support here.

Explanation =/= endorsement.

There have been many cases in the past when someone has said that there were no announcements only to be found lying because they didn't hear them

Someone who didn't/couldn't hear an announcement isn't lying.

On 156s it's practically impossible to hear many announcements because the PA is crap, and that's if you don't get a guard who mumbles.
 

Peter C

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Hmm, OpenTrainTimes shows that the train left Hucknall a few minutes late and terminated at Newstead 45 minutes late, the train being cancelled for the rest of the way.

https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C85174/2019-06-29

As RTT only goes back 7 days, I'm not sure what info @PeterC is showing.
I went to RTT and found the train from the Saturday.
upload_2019-8-8_21-45-40.png
Oh wait - the date was earlier than last Saturday - very sorry! :(

-Peter


EDIT: Here is what I've found on OTT:
upload_2019-8-8_21-49-51.png
 

Peter C

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Explanation =/= endorsement.



Someone who didn't/couldn't hear an announcement isn't lying.

On 156s it's practically impossible to hear many announcements because the PA is crap, and that's if you don't get a guard who mumbles.
Some of the people on here have been quite adamant that this woman did nothing wrong!
I think I should have said "people in the past have been found to be lying because there were announcements, they heard them, and they said there were none".
Apologies!

-Peter
 

farleigh

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I hope that police resources have not been stripped back so far that this 'hunt' is compromised.
 
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