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Northern Ticket Machine Update Issues

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DC2001

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Seems not. I asked for a single for a "non-popular" destination: on the screen with the services and tickets just chose the ticket, and was able to add direct to the basket without choosing a train.
That didn't seem to work for me last time I tried - I suppose it could have been the screen not being responsive.
 
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Puffing Devil

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I suggest the designer of this wonderful new interface goes and spends a few mornings at a busy commuter station with a single machine. Watch and enjoy the pain that the overworked new interface brings.
 

DC2001

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I suggest the designer of this wonderful new interface goes and spends a few mornings at a busy commuter station with a single machine. Watch and enjoy the pain that the overworked new interface brings.
Even off-peak the queue for the ticket machine off-peak is sometimes so long that the (late) train manages to arrive before everyone has managed to use the machine!
 

Ant158

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https://flic.kr/p/2gUXf9G
Was at Clitheroe station today and had a play with the machine. On the home screen it bizarrely has Stoke on Trent! as the only quick select option. No Manchester Victoria or Blackburn which every train on this route goes to. Clicked through to select a ticket for another station and the machine was really slow between each press and where you pressed wasn’t lined up to the screen so the selection box below was clicked. Used this machine not that long ago and was much quicker.
 

30907

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Never experienced that in my experience. Always a case of:

- select enter destination
- type D, type O
- It knows I want Dortmund
- done, oh and by the way, it'll indicate the tariff zone so next time I can just go single - priesstufe D - done
That works with Verkehrsverbund (PTE) fares but AFAIK Intercity and Regional fares still ask you to select a specific train.

Back to the Northern machines: Keighley yesterday, the "popular" screen had all but one fields populated. To Saltaire I could have a single or CDR, to Shipley (10p more, how silly!) only the single! Apart from that, the destinations/fares were the ones I expected.
(OT: not Windermere, there was at least one Haworth to WDM passenger yesterday!)
 
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py_megapixel

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I spotted one of the updated machines and, remembering this thread, tried to use it.
In order to buy the ticket, I had to click through two pages of "popular tickets" to finally get a keyboard to enter my destination.
Why??
 

xotGD

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I spotted one of the updated machines and, remembering this thread, tried to use it.
In order to buy the ticket, I had to click through two pages of "popular tickets" to finally get a keyboard to enter my destination.
Why??
That's the easy bit! You're only about 10% of the way through the process by that point!
 

Killingworth

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We don't have an issue with coffee cups at my station. However, the most popular destination is Sheffield yet the only popular option offered is for a single, despite there being space for at least 3 more popular options. Cynically I might suggest that's because there's a much poorer service out of Sheffield and most get a bus, taxi, are picked up, or even walk rather than get a train back.

Whatever, observation shows those picking up pre-ordered tickets have no bother - but some are collecting handfuls of paper. With 4 likely TOCs to be used on journeys from the station there's resistance to using TOC specific Apps. I know, I've managed to use all 4 with success, but originally had some difficulty with connecting services. Some swear by Trainline, others are against. It will take a few more years to get many less frequent travellers to use an App.

It's the immediate travellers that are really causing delays. They struggle to follow the complexity of all the options they're confronted with. They put their bag down, or up, to concentrate. The train arrives and they leap on. Oh dear.................IMG_20190812_120507.jpg
 

northernman

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19 Jul 2012
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139
Just renewed my monthly MCard this morning, and the TVM didn't properly read my card when inserted into the reader without first prompting the option from the splash screen. After that it worked fine, although with the new software the counterpart isn't printed unlike the earlier version. This is of course normal for MCards now as they can be renewed using NFC compliant devices, but threw me a bit. So for piece of mind I scanned the card with the MCard app to show the guard if needed.

So a couple of points @northernman

Firstly there might be a software issue with the renewal process that needs patching. Being able to simply drop the card into the reader to start the renewal process is a very handy, time saving feature. And given that some passengers may not be aware of Metro's change in policy about not printing counterpart tickets, perhaps an on screen message about not printing them might be helpful?


My apologies that this happened. We have an intermittent fault that we are tracking and trying to establish cause with Mcards currently. If you want to DM me about more details, happy to discuss. We are looking at what messages we can display as part of the overall enhancements based on feedback from customers, and people on this forum.
 

northernman

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Update on the machine on P1 at Bingley:

It is now possible to buy a return to Leeds without any faff. Hurray!

However, I still have the painful nonsense when buying a ticket to a destination not on the 'popular' list. Please, please, please get rid of this torture by ticket machine. I just want a ticket. I don't want to select trains (I've already had to press a button to say I'm travelling 'Now'). I don't want to make seat reservations. I just want a ticket!

Glad to hear the machine is behaving, we have has some problems with that one, its being specially monitored. We are looking to make changes to the popular list to make it more helpful and relevant. Remember you don't have to select a train
 

northernman

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Only a little gripe in the big scheme of things, but maybe something our resident Northern ticket machine chap can look at (sorry if it’s been mentioned earlier)

Hebden Bridge has ticket machines on both platforms now, but the selection of “frequently bought tickets” or whatever it’s called are all for travel towards Leeds. Even on the Manchester platform, which anyone who’s been there will realise is under the subway and without external access

So frustrating and unnecessary
Hi, thanks for the feedback, I will get this changes to represent the direction the TVM serves
 

northernman

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Just took some exercise by walking down to Saltaire to do some more research and I noted the following:

1. The first screen offers Anytime Single and Offpeak Day Return to Leeds, but (at 14.15) not Anytime Day Return which is required to return in the evening peak.

2. It doesn't offer any other destinations, which is a waste of a screen.

3. Viewing the restriction on the CDR brings up the whole blurb of code ND, including a long list of stations twice, when all it needs is the first couple of lines. At least those could be highlighted!

4. The language spoken in Germany etc is Deutsch not Deutsche - trivial but gives a poor impression (I didn't check further!)

That said, overall I still think it's pretty good.

Hi, thanks for the feedback. I will pick up the lack of display of the Anytime Day Return. We will populate the screen with more useful destinations. On point 3, its industry data so the TVM is only showing what its told to. That said, its making our fares managers consider what once was acceptable for staff to look at versus whats acceptable for customers. Deutsche....yes we picked that up early on, however whilst I agree it needs to change, Id prefer to focus the supplier on more fundamental issues, many of which have been raised on this forum. And thanks! Glad you think overall its OK, we are trying to give more choice, but I accept we need to balance against quick purchase with minimal button presses.
 

northernman

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Please, please, please can you tell me how I can bypass all the select a train screens. This is now a nightmare what used to take me 30 seconds to buy tickets took me about 10 mins today. I wouldn’t mind but I was buying an Anytime ticket.

I do think a journey planner option is a good idea at present it is turning the simple task of buying a basic ticket to a destination with multiple services extremely complicated


Hi. I am assuming the destination/fare you require is not on the first popular tickets screen? If not then its...

Buy tickets
Find other tickets
Select popular destination / type in your destination
Travel now (or whenever you are going)
One way or return
Select ticket
Add to basket
Pay
 

northernman

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It originally seemed better to post on here as northernman is obviously a key player. However, as he has not been on the thread for over a week now, I think your suggestion is a good one as we do not know when/if he will be back.


Hi, even Northern employees are allowed some holiday..... :) I am still monitoring the feedback, and based on what I have read on this forum already, and talking to customers, reading customer feedback etc, we are already planning some changes with the supplier. So yes, please do keep suggesting things on here, it is being listened to
 

northernman

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139
I noticed that my station had been upgraded to the new software this morning. Frankly it's unusable, I was trying to see if I could find some sort of ranger ticket on it, but on at least five button presses I wasn't even offered a ticket to the most obvious destination from my station.

Have none of you guys at Northern ever used a ticket machine overseas? They're universally easier

Hi, sorry you found it difficult. We have not yet set up ranger tickets yet, its for a future release of software. And yes, I have used machines extensively, and some of those features are incorporated, however as many have pointed out on here, its a tricky balance to get the complexity of UK rail fares system in a user friendly way to customers, whilst theres a queue of other people stood behind you all wanting fares. I've recognised its not quite right, and I'm directly engaging with forum members, customers, staff, stakeholders. Which ranger were you after?
 

northernman

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139
I've noticed that you don't actually need to choose a train once you're on the screen with the ticket prices. If you just press the ticket you want it then shows you which trains it is valid on and lets you add to basket without choosing a specific train.


Hi, yes this is correct, you do not have to specify a train. So if you know the fare, just press it. The concept of the trains/fares screen is to give choice. So it will show if services are running, so you can choose to buy, or not. If you want to travel on a specific train and select it, it will show what fares are valid, and if you want a specific fare it will show you what trains are valid. But, as said, if you are experienced and know what you want, select the fare.
 

Dr Hoo

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We don't have an issue with coffee cups at my station. However, the most popular destination is Sheffield yet the only popular option offered is for a single, despite there being space for at least 3 more popular options. Cynically I might suggest that's because there's a much poorer service out of Sheffield and most get a bus, taxi, are picked up, or even walk rather than get a train back.

Whatever, observation shows those picking up pre-ordered tickets have no bother - but some are collecting handfuls of paper. With 4 likely TOCs to be used on journeys from the station there's resistance to using TOC specific Apps. I know, I've managed to use all 4 with success, but originally had some difficulty with connecting services. Some swear by Trainline, others are against. It will take a few more years to get many less frequent travellers to use an App.

It's the immediate travellers that are really causing delays. They struggle to follow the complexity of all the options they're confronted with. They put their bag down, or up, to concentrate. The train arrives and they leap on. Oh dear.................View attachment 67123
This is an absolutely classic example of the total disconnect between the ticket machine programming and the finer details of wider design. Dore & Totley has recently been nicely reconfigured with the ticket machine no longer out in the pouring rain and under the new canopy. There is a new ‘perch’ rail, clearly visible to the right of the machine, which would have made a great coffee cup and bag rest but it has a slope on it so items fall off and spill or smash. So passengers then rest bags out of eyeline on top of the machine and leave them behind whilst highly stressed at failure to be able to purchase a ticket anyway and panic at being Penalty Fared.
Such minimal joined-up thinking.
There is a nice space for a dog lead hook as well.
 

Bletchleyite

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Hi, sorry you found it difficult. We have not yet set up ranger tickets yet, its for a future release of software. And yes, I have used machines extensively, and some of those features are incorporated, however as many have pointed out on here, its a tricky balance to get the complexity of UK rail fares system in a user friendly way to customers, whilst theres a queue of other people stood behind you all wanting fares. I've recognised its not quite right, and I'm directly engaging with forum members, customers, staff, stakeholders. Which ranger were you after?

I'd probably say that the priorities were that the TVM should sell everything the guard can for immediate travel, so people aren't overpaying if things like Duos, GM Rangers (and bus and tram day tickets etc), Wayfarers etc are the most appropriate ticket for their journey.

"Leisure" Rangers/Rovers rather less of a priority because they are much more of a niche product that those who use them tend to know how to obtain.

Having tickets the machine can't sell that are intended for walk-up "mainstream" journeys makes rather a mockery of the Penalty Fares scheme.
 

northernman

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139
I had a go at the one at Wavertree Technology Park during the week... it was bad enough trying to get the dam thing to read my card (collecting ticket TOD).

After that feat, and as I had some spare time, I thought, after reading this thread, i’d have a go at buying a ticket.

I choose a single to Liverpool, I agree with other posters, blimey why so complicated?!

Anytime single yet you need to choose a train... great!

Don’t even get me started on the permit to travel rigmarole, it asks all the information about where your going but prints sod all about your journey on the ticket!

Finally, I appreciate Wavertree Technology Park is a long name but does it really have to totally obliterate the date on the ticket?

Just my 2 pennies worth.

Hi, thanks for your 2 pennies worth, good feedback. You do not have to select a train. The Promise to Pay process is designed to tell us what fare you wanted so we can match that against what fares are sold. I will pick up the print format issue, it should not overwrite the date. The irony of technology not working at that station, with that name....dear me!!

Saperstein.
I had a go at the one at Wavertree Technology Park during the week... it was bad enough trying to get the dam thing to read my card (collecting ticket TOD).

After that feat, and as I had some spare time, I thought, after reading this thread, i’d have a go at buying a ticket.

I choose a single to Liverpool, I agree with other posters, blimey why so complicated?!

Anytime single yet you need to choose a train... great!

Don’t even get me started on the permit to travel rigmarole, it asks all the information about where your going but prints sod all about your journey on the ticket!

Finally, I appreciate Wavertree Technology Park is a long name but does it really have to totally obliterate the date on the ticket?

Just my 2 pennies worth.

Saperstein.

Hi, thanks for your 2 pennies worth, good feedback. You do not have to select a train. The Promise to Pay process is designed to tell us what fare you wanted so we can match that against what fares are sold. I will pick up the print format issue, it should not overwrite the date. The irony of technology not working at that station, with that name....dear me!!
 

Bletchleyite

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A long-term aspiration perhaps - the Promise to Pay could contain a scannable barcode which would immediately bring up the selected fare on the guard's ticket machine?
 

northernman

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This is an absolutely classic example of the total disconnect between the ticket machine programming and the finer details of wider design. Dore & Totley has recently been nicely reconfigured with the ticket machine no longer out in the pouring rain and under the new canopy. There is a new ‘perch’ rail, clearly visible to the right of the machine, which would have made a great coffee cup and bag rest but it has a slope on it so items fall off and spill or smash. So passengers then rest bags out of eyeline on top of the machine and leave them behind whilst highly stressed at failure to be able to purchase a ticket anyway and panic at being Penalty Fared.
Such minimal joined-up thinking.
There is a nice space for a dog lead hook as well.

Hi. I haven't really got involved in the whole shelf/dog lead hook discussion, so far. However I would have concerns about any form of shelf sticking out, or hook. It raises a risk of catching someone, and a litter trap, and fair enough the flush front design of the machine doesnt really lend itself to adding anything. Id be interested if you have examples of other public facing systems that have considered that kind of thing?
 

northernman

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139
A long-term aspiration perhaps - the Promise to Pay could contain a scannable barcode which would immediately bring up the selected fare on the guard's ticket machine?

Hi, we are considering this, but its only really going to tell the conductor from/to/ticket type/fare status, all of which are easily selected on the STARmobile ticket machine
 

takno

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Hi, yes this is correct, you do not have to specify a train. So if you know the fare, just press it. The concept of the trains/fares screen is to give choice. So it will show if services are running, so you can choose to buy, or not. If you want to travel on a specific train and select it, it will show what fares are valid, and if you want a specific fare it will show you what trains are valid. But, as said, if you are experienced and know what you want, select the fare.
I have the same problem with LNER ticket machines, where I only learned this when I was told on the forum, and I still never seem to be able to find what I'm supposed to do, to the point where I've given up trying to use their machines.

If the thing you've got to press doesn't look enough like a button, or it looks like a header rather than the meat of the screen, people aren't going to figure it out. Given that it's probably what the vast majority of people want to do on Northern machines it should really be the most prominent buttons on the screen.
 

Dr Hoo

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Hi. I haven't really got involved in the whole shelf/dog lead hook discussion, so far. However I would have concerns about any form of shelf sticking out, or hook. It raises a risk of catching someone, and a litter trap, and fair enough the flush front design of the machine doesnt really lend itself to adding anything. Id be interested if you have examples of other public facing systems that have considered that kind of thing?
Well, I was thinking of a ‘booking office’ counter, which the ticket machine is conceptually trying to replicate. These always seem to have a level surface on which a handbag, coffee cup and stuff can be rested. I can even remember when passengers used to write cheques on them!
I know that there were (and still are) some ‘hole in the wall’ hatches on the exterior wall of small staffed stations but most ticket windows are in some sort of ‘booking hall’ where it isn’t raining, the sun isn’t on the screen and the buggy isn’t about to roll of the platform in the howling wind and fall on the track in front the arriving train.
Putting a machine inside an enclosed shelter, as at Chinley for example, gets round many of these problems. The dogs can’t run off either.
Ticket machines are not new. I remember using them on the Frankfurt U-bahn in the early 1980s. But they were usually under cover, didn’t use modern screen graphics and people didn’t always carry drinks in those days.
It seems that ticket machine designers are somehow locked in a long-gone millennium, totally drawn into the nuances of software engineering and completely ignorant of the fact that their products are now being used in a wider range of environments than the first generation.
 
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xotGD

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Glad to hear the machine is behaving, we have has some problems with that one, its being specially monitored. We are looking to make changes to the popular list to make it more helpful and relevant. Remember you don't have to select a train
Can you advise how I avoid selecting a train when I pick an 'Other' destination? I couldn't figure a fast-track way when I used the machine this morning.
 

xotGD

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Oh, another thing. After I have said that I want a return, travelling now, coming back today, I then get asked if I want a return or the more expensive option of two singles. Why?

I know that if I was returning tomorrow I would need two singles (since annoyingly only day returns are available for local journeys in West Yorks), but I've already pressed the button to say I'm returning today, so it is clear I want the day return ticket.
 

Tim33160

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Cuddington TVM has been altered to offer season tickets, provided you can enter your photocard id. Most of the "popular" tickets have disappeared and the promise to pay button has been greyed out. If you press it you get "Sorry, Promise to Pay is currently unavailable". It also offers smartcard, which I assume means it offers the facility for topping one up, but can you buy one at any booking offices yet?
 

Bletchleyite

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Cuddington TVM has been altered to offer season tickets, provided you can enter your photocard id. Most of the "popular" tickets have disappeared and the promise to pay button has been greyed out. If you press it you get "Sorry, Promise to Pay is currently unavailable". It also offers smartcard, which I assume means it offers the facility for topping one up, but can you buy one at any booking offices yet?

Does Cuddington have a booking office? I think it'd be disabled if that was open, as you can pay cash there?
 

jawr256

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https://flic.kr/p/2gUXf9G
Was at Clitheroe station today and had a play with the machine. On the home screen it bizarrely has Stoke on Trent! as the only quick select option. No Manchester Victoria or Blackburn which every train on this route goes to. Clicked through to select a ticket for another station and the machine was really slow between each press and where you pressed wasn’t lined up to the screen so the selection box below was clicked. Used this machine not that long ago and was much quicker.
That Stoke on Trent fare is bizarre - there's no off peak day return there from Clitheroe, and £12.20 is the fare from Adlington (Cheshire) to Stoke - much cheaper than fares from Clitheroe.
 

jtuk

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Hi, sorry you found it difficult. We have not yet set up ranger tickets yet, its for a future release of software. And yes, I have used machines extensively, and some of those features are incorporated, however as many have pointed out on here, its a tricky balance to get the complexity of UK rail fares system in a user friendly way to customers, whilst theres a queue of other people stood behind you all wanting fares. I've recognised its not quite right, and I'm directly engaging with forum members, customers, staff, stakeholders. Which ranger were you after?

I was just searching, I would have been looking for a Wayfarer. Although I did use one yesterday at Cheadle Hulme, I would have assumed the popular stations would be Manchester, Stockport, then some combination of Macc/Wilmslow, and it just offered up Handforth and Wilmslow.

Although, when I did finally find where Poynton was, I was pleased that it did ask the question whether I wanted a receipt, cutting the amount of card stock it goes through by two thirds
 
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