West Coast Partnership: Awarded to First Trenitalia

[Kite159]

So the good folks of Motherwell, Walsall and Gobowen must be dancing in the streets. Underw helmed...

Sarcasm mode off. ROFL. Oops switch refuses to disengage.

Can't wait to see how RB responds.

Additional calls at Motherwell will probably be well used for South Lanarkshire passengers who at the moment have to double back from Glasgow

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes 20 Super Voyagers (with tilt) for 13 Bi-modes and 10 electrics units (non-tilt!?). Does not seem enough. As has been said though, some of the Class 221s double up at the moment on Euston - West Midlands - Scottish services, so those would be covered by the new EMUs.
Just seems crazy to have 2 small fleets again, unless they are Class 802s & Class 397s which seems highly likely.

Don't forget the 50-odd HS2 sets arriving by 2026(?), to be ordered next year.
That will release many WCML trains for other work.

 

[EE Andy b1]

So, you think that HS2 trains will trundle up to Scotland at 110 mph? If the Class 397 was bought because it was cheap, it would surely have been cheaper if specified for 110 mph.

Maybe not, but as HS2 Classic compatible sets will not be running before 2024/25 at the very earliest then i can't see any infrastructure improvements coming into play before then either for the limited TPE services that will be running.
It will probably happen at some time because tilt is a dead duck and unlikely to have any more tilting trains built for the UK, i could be wrong, i quite often am!

As for the Class 397s TPE probably had to specify 125 mph max speed for future compatibility but have we seen any plans from Network Rail yet?

Don't forget the 50-odd HS2 sets arriving by 2026(?), to be ordered next year.
That will release many WCML trains for other work.

There will be plenty capacity from then onwards!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

So, based on the extra Liverpool service, we will go up from 9tph to 10tph leaving Euston. Is the path available? Or do any changes need to be made to create one?

I'm slightly surprised because I would have thought that, if an extra hourly path was available, Preston probably needed it more than Liverpool: London-Preston trains are almost invariably extremely busy.

Also, thinking about the Chester service... that makes very few stops, which I'm guessing is because of the Voyager's poor acceleration. Since that service will clearly be run by a bi-mode once the new trains arrive - and will therefore doubtless have excellent acceleration on electric power, I wonder if First might add some additional stops between Milton Keynes and Crewe. That would make that service a lot more useful (and probably, better used).

 

[hwl]

Hardly. Bids were submitted ages before Virgin announced this.

Yep but Virgin got the ORR paper work in first, the winning bidder can't do it till contract signed. Good ambush from VT!

 

[RealTrains07]

Are they calling it "West Coast Rail" in an attempt to hijack the remaining goodwill and fond memories from "East Coast Trains", mess it (like First usually do - Great Western brand was messed so they rebranded to FGW which was messed so rebranded to GWR and now that is being messed by all the IET problems so what brand next once they run on electric reliably?) and reduce the public enthusiasm for nationalisation?

Their is already a company called west cost railway isnt their? Or something similar

 

[RealTrains07]

LNR not exactly InterCity!




It's looking that way, and why not!



Yes 20 Super Voyagers (with tilt) for 13 Bi-modes and 10 electrics units (non-tilt!?). Does not seem enough. As has been said though, some of the Class 221s double up at the moment on Euston - West Midlands - Scottish services, so those would be covered by the new EMUs.

Just seems crazy to have 2 small fleets again, unless they are Class 802s & Class 397s which seems highly likely.

Once again time will tell, but i bet there late into service!

Unlikely the purely electric trains can run north wales services

Is the route to holyhead electrified?

 

[NoMorePacers]

So, you think that HS2 trains will trundle up to Scotland at 110 mph? If the Class 397 was bought because it was cheap, it would surely have been cheaper if specified for 110 mph.

The 397 could be 125mph capable in the same way that the Class 67 is supposedly 125mph capable.

 

[Along the bay]

Unlikely the purely electric trains can run north wales services

Is the route to holyhead electrified?

Nope
My local MP suggests it from time to time but it'll never happen.

 

[Jamesrob637]

From a consumer point of view how will the change in franchise effect the pricing structure of the fares ? You can currently get some very competitive fares on the WCML between the West Midlands and the North West / Scotland. Are we going to see a hike in ticket prices or are they likely to remain the approximately same ? Improvements will come at a cost and inevitably the passenger will have to foot part of the bill.

This should go in a separate thread dedicated to fares, especially as yet another rise has been announced today

 

[EE Andy b1]

Unlikely the purely electric trains can run north wales services

Is the route to holyhead electrified?

Not electrified Crewe to Llandudno/Holyhead, that's partly what the Bi-modes are for. Also Shrewsbury, Wrexham & Gobowen.

 

[RealTrains07]

Is their a path for a walsall intercity service? Does their need to be one? Where would it go?

Quite odd proposal if you ask me?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was wondering that. Not knowing the area it does seem like an odd place to terminate London services at. Is there an operational reason why this might be the case, as the population of the village doesn't seem to justify this? Or is it a political one, keeping one of the current Eurosceptic MPs onboard? (Sorry if that seems cynical, but we live in cynical times)

Gobowen is the station for Oswestry (a relatively prosperous market town) and a wide area of west Shropshire and northern Powys.
No doubt the Welsh Government and local politicians prodded the bidders to improve the offering on the Welsh side (also in North Wales).
New bi-modes kitted out with ETCS also ought to be capable of running on the Cambrian network too, but maybe that's now regarded as a Welsh preserve.

 

[RealTrains07]

Not electrified Crewe to Llandudno/Holyhead, that's partly what the Bi-modes are for. Also Shrewsbury, Wrexham & Gobowen.

Will 13 trains be enough for those services though?

 

[hwl]

Will 13 trains be enough for those services though?

Depends on the spec and diagramming overall including the spec of the new EMUs...

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Out of interest, lots of chat seems to be about how this is a "management contract" and that this is somehow exciting and different - yet how does this differ from a traditional franchise?

 

[Class 466]

Yep but Virgin got the ORR paper work in first, the winning bidder can't do it till contract signed. Good ambush from VT!

That doesn't really guarantee anything though. the WCP already has the foundations that the VT bid wont in terms of staffing, route knowledge and depots. Virgin's bid needs all that from scratch.

Anyhow, I personally hope sense prevails and the franchise holder gets 2tph. Makes things far simpler for passengers and would provide more consistency in times of disruption.

 

[hwl]

That doesn't really guarantee anything though. the WCP already has the foundations that the VT bid wont in terms of staffing, route knowledge and depots. Virgin's bid needs all that from scratch.

Anyhow, I personally hope sense prevails and the franchise holder gets 2tph. Makes things far simpler for passengers and would provide more consistency in times of disruption.

No guarantees but First did the same thing on the east coast with their OA London Edinburgh and got the paths giving VTEC issues.

If Virgin OA partner with Alstom (as rumoured) then no depot issues.

 

[ainsworth74]

Out of interest, lots of chat seems to be about how this is a "management contract" and that this is somehow exciting and different - yet how does this differ from a traditional franchise?

The management contract element only kicks in from March/April 2026 once HS2 enters the scene and prior to that it's a traditional franchise.

 

[RealTrains07]

That doesn't really guarantee anything though. the WCP already has the foundations that the VT bid wont in terms of staffing, route knowledge and depots. Virgin's bid needs all that from scratch.

Anyhow, I personally hope sense prevails and the franchise holder gets 2tph. Makes things far simpler for passengers and would provide more consistency in times of disruption.

Space is already an issue at euston without First throwing in extra services thanks to HS2

Unless turnout times are shortened it will be interesting to see how this plays out

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm surprised that the no deal Tories are giving a nationalised company from an EU state a slice of the torta!

The alternative was awarding it to a Hong Kong company with a mainland Chinese minority share (and another EU state railway share - Renfe) .
Trenitalia at least know something about operating their home-built Pendolinos, and about introducing high-speed services generally.

 

[Muenchener]

Additional calls at Motherwell will probably be well used for South Lanarkshire passengers who at the moment have to double back from Glasgow

Clearly all three locations will be winners here but my main point is that, overall, it's not an earth shaking franchise win. As we know; it only occurred by default due to the other bidders refusing to take on the pensions risk.

 

[ashkeba]

Their is already a company called west cost railway isnt their? Or something similar

Good point. West Coast Railways the spot-hire and charter company. Do you think anyone (FT, DfT, ...) asked them or could we have another completely avoidable court case coming?

 

[RealTrains07]

The alternative was awarding it to a Hong Kong company with a mainland Chinese minority share (and another EU state railway share - Renfe) .
Trenitalia at least know something about operating their home-built Pendolinos, and about introducing high-speed services generally.

Alternatively the franchise could be cancelled like SE and maybe DfT could re tender it later

 

[hwl]

Good point. West Coast Railways the spot-hire and charter company. Do you think anyone (FT, DfT, ...) asked them or could we have another completely avoidable court case coming?

The FAQ's say brand details to be released "soon"

 

[Antman]

The RMT has condemned the decision as a "political stitch up."

Source:
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-slams-west-coast14819/

Let’s be honest, if they exhumed Keir Hardie and Stanier to run the railways and had a guarantee of 20% pa pay rises, no automation and a union pilgrim for every site, they’d still put out the same stuff.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

First will have a monopoly in the North West to Scotland routes now, so I imagine they can price gorge all they want. Should deliver great results for the passenger.

Franchises don't work like that - different contracts, different TOC ownership (Trenitalia isn't just there to make the numbers up).
And it's no different to London-Exeter say, with First running both GWR and SWR.
Or Govia running GTR and South Eastern.
TPE will also be rebid in 2023, long before WCP which has over 11 years to 2031.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Their is already a company called west cost railway isnt their? Or something similar

West Coast Trains Ltd is the franchise vehicle for Intercity West Coast services, currently owned by Virgin Trains.
This will transfer to First Trenitalia in December, and they may use a different brand (obviously not "Virgin").
Other operators will have to name their TOCs something different.

I wonder if this will at least make Network Rail change the operator code from "VT"?
At least the DfT has triumphed in its neutral branding policy, as Virgin's now largely white trains can be repainted cheaply!

 

[pdeaves]

Are they calling it "West Coast Rail" in an attempt to hijack the remaining goodwill and fond memories from "East Coast Trains", mess it (like First usually do - Great Western brand was messed so they rebranded to FGW which was messed so rebranded to GWR and now that is being messed by all the IET problems so what brand next once they run on electric reliably?) and reduce the public enthusiasm for nationalisation?

https://www.westcoastrail.co.uk/faq.html states:

What will Virgin Trains be known as under the new franchise? How will our brand change?
We know how important the brand is to the current franchise. We’re currently developing the new franchise’s brand and hope to be able to announce everything soon, including the new name. From the start of the new franchise, we’ll go through a new branding process to make sure the new brand and vision is reflected across the network.

Thus, West Coast Rail may not be the final name.

 

[yorkie]

I wonder if this will at least make Network Rail change the operator code from "VT"?
At least the DfT has triumphed in its neutral branding policy, as Virgin's now largely white trains can be repainted cheaply!

I'll type my reply, and move another reply, into a new thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/toc-codes-when-operators-change-hands.188866/