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West Coast Partnership: Awarded to First Trenitalia

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StaffsWCML

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Not necessarily any of them, but new designs are under development all the time. The original post that spawned this sub discussion spoke of replacing existing trains with an alternative design. That hypothetical alternative may not exist yet until the hypothetical order is placed with a hypothetical specification. That does not have to match an existing product in any way and does not necessarily have to be DfT-specified (plenty of trains aren't).

As far as I am aware the DfT have a hand in the specification of all the new trains, the reason why most of them are crap. If a TOC could go out and buy a train of their choice I am sure they would, obviously this would require longer franchises to see return on investment. I suppose the DfT have to consider that in so many years someone will inherit these trains whether they want them or not in most cases.
 
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krus_aragon

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Isn't it the case that the paths on the Chester to Wrexham line are extremely limited, and highly sought after for future services to Liverpool & Manchester?

It feels wrong to clog it up with a London service which could go south from Wrexham instead.
The current service from Wrexham via Chester takes 2h36m to get to Euston. Going via Shrewsbury, you'd be looking at three hours plus. Plus, it's only two passenger services at off-peak (local) times: 7am and 8pm.

Since the partial redoubling of Chester-Wrexham, things are a little more comfortable on the remaining single track portion. The issue (as far as I can see) is that the timings for Liverpool-Shrewsbury and Birmingham-Holyhead services seem to clash with each other, based on the existing paths out of Liverpool and Birmingham.
 

DarloRich

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Why would they!? The "human beings"( and I use that term loosely) that they have to think about do nothing but put their feet, luggage, rubbish,puke, urine, faeces and food spillages all over them anyway! I don't know why any TOC would spend money on new equipment given what the British travelling public are like!

you have lost me...................
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Isn't it the case that the paths on the Chester to Wrexham line are extremely limited, and highly sought after for future services to Liverpool & Manchester?
It feels wrong to clog it up with a London service which could go south from Wrexham instead.

New paths on the 4-mile single line are not needed, as it will just be the existing Voyager diagram extended south from Wrexham to Gobowen.
Since the redoubling of 5 miles of the route, just one extra train has been added, the new Wrexham-Liverpool in peak hours only.
If anything, there is less freight now on the line than there was before the upgrade.
 

hwl

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As far as I am aware the DfT have a hand in the specification of all the new trains, the reason why most of them are crap. If a TOC could go out and buy a train of their choice I am sure they would, obviously this would require longer franchises to see return on investment. I suppose the DfT have to consider that in so many years someone will inherit these trains whether they want them or not in most cases.
There are no section 54 guarantees any more hence ROSCOs need to ensure there is a future market for them beyond the initial lease agreed. This has seen DfT /ATOC (RDG)/ ROSCOs come together and agree minimum standards* (non compulsory) for new stock to avoid stranded assets e.g. all new 3rd rail stock will be 25kV retrofitable

*Some CAF and Stadler stock doesn't tick all the criteria or the RSSB standards on how things should be done e.g. ASDO
 

transmanche

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Isn't it the case that the paths on the Chester to Wrexham line are extremely limited, and highly sought after for future services to Liverpool & Manchester?

It feels wrong to clog it up with a London service which could go south from Wrexham instead.
Serving Gobowen is simply an extension of the existing Wrexham service. So it's not using any additional paths between Chester and Wrexham. And a single daily return service is hardly 'clogging' up the route.

As for going south from Wrexham, going via Chester is faster.
 

hwl

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I was just reading that First Group has taken on David Martin as Chairman.
He was the Chief Executive of Arriva at the time it was acquired by DB, up to 2016.
Arriva itself is of course up for sale.
David Martin was apparently the choice of the activist First Group shareholder Coast Capital.
Not quite. Coast capital first choice didn't put his nomination papers in derailing the attempt board clear out but the Chairman later quit and was replaced by a non Coast Capital choice so DM isn't the preferred pick...
 

61653 HTAFC

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A simple and straightforward naming would be "Intercity West Coast".

Being as the franchise will be solely operating Intercity trains, I feel that is the best one. Also, I remember it was that branding in the days of British Rail was well.
And it runs along the coast for about 300 yards!
 

RealTrains07

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First would be better off financially going into the west coast if maybe they ditched franchises that are doing them more damage than good i.e SWR
 

Journeyman

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First would be better off financially going into the west coast if maybe they ditched franchises that are doing them more damage than good i.e SWR

But they can't just walk away without a massive reputational and financial hit. If they did that, they'd never be awarded a franchise again.
 

krus_aragon

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First would be better off financially going into the west coast if maybe they ditched franchises that are doing them more damage than good i.e SWR
Though I'd tend to think better of an operator that sticks it out for their franchise period, rather than throwing in the towel whenever it suits them.
 

hwl

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First would be better off financially going into the west coast if maybe they ditched franchises that are doing them more damage than good i.e SWR
With SWR they have chosen to take the financial hit for the the "damage" up front (very tax efficient when you look at the whole group) which the activist shareholders didn't quite seem to understand.
SWR is never going to be as profitable as hoped but should be profitable later especially when some of the renegotiation has concluded.
 

Boysteve

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No they bought the Class 397 because it was the cheapest (CAF) option available to them.

Iv'e not seen Network Rails plans for upgrading any part of the West Coast mainline yet, to non-EPS 125 mph running, and if they do it'll be years before we see any benefit at great expense.
So, you think that HS2 trains will trundle up to Scotland at 110 mph? If the Class 397 was bought because it was cheap, it would surely have been cheaper if specified for 110 mph.

I do not understand why there has to be great expense to allow non-tilt 125mph running on the Northern WCML! For example, take the long section from Lockerbie to Beattock (ex-station not summit), the track, signalling and OHLE are aready engineered for 125mph running from the Pendo's and 221. It is a very straight section [for the WCML] and safe for non-tilting trains to run at 125mph too, they are just not allowed to do so. The only expense is a new sign reading '125' rather than maintaining the two existing signs of '110' and 'EPS 125'!
 

Kite159

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Highly unlikely that two managers just happen to live in two obscure places that are accessible by the WCML directly, if a TOC so chooses to run services.

More likely is that Walsall connectivity has been a part of the West Midlands development for a few years now, so why not win some extra points and give it a service to London?
Gobowen is also fairly popular.

A token direct daily service for a town which already has direct London services, it will be like the LNER Sunderland/Bradford services, the majority of passengers on after New Street heading to Walsall would have boarded at New Street where it will be "a fast train".

If you were a Walsall commuter in London, would you hang around for "the direct train" or jump on the first Birmingham fast service and change at New Street to a West Midlands service?
 

krus_aragon

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Will north Wales be getting anymore trains?
Yes. Mainly earlier start & later finish for London trains, extending the Wrexham service to Gobowen, and a summer Saturday train to Llandudno. Plus the existing Voyager trains will be replaced with brand new trains. See this post for a breakdown.
 

EE Andy b1

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If you were a Walsall commuter in London, would you hang around for "the direct train" or jump on the first Birmingham fast service and change at New Street to a West Midlands service?

If it were me i think i would give it a try. If I've more chance of a seat in a bit of comfort and a chance of a drink on the way home, why not?
Better than being crammed into one of those London Northwestern units, and changing at horrible New Street.
 

Kingham West

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Last week on a Trenitalia FrecciaRosso service - the E1.50 Espresso made in a real Lavazza machine in the comfy bar/buffet was very fine!
Reading the paperwork , they promise “at seat catering “ , and more Luggage space.
First Group have form, They don’t do Buffets, adore toastrack seating , and know how to piss off Long Distance Passengers .
No luxury coffee on Great Western .
 

HamworthyGoods

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Reading the paperwork , they promise “at seat catering “ , and more Luggage space.
First Group have form, They don’t do Buffets, adore toastrack seating , and know how to piss off Long Distance Passengers .
No luxury coffee on Great Western .

Where have you got “first group don’t do buffets” from?

Hull Trains have buffet cars, the Night Riviera has a buffet car, Great Western HSTs had buffet cars until DfT procured trains turned up without them!
 

EE Andy b1

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Last i heard recently stagecoach has been approved to proceed with legal action against the DfT

I believe a court hearing in January.
No wonder the DfT suddenly awarded the franchise to First/Trenitalia to start 08th December. (Conspiracy theory).

Just been reading some reviews about Trenitalia on Tripadvisor, they don't make good reading, should work well with First.
 
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