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Why are Northern allowed to cancel Sunday Services seemingly at will?

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Carlisle

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I think nationalisation or full privatisation would end up being the best solution (no idea if either will ever happen though)
 
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DC2001

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I see that as far as Northern's own delays and cancellations go, 'silly' explanations seem to be creeping in again. One which rears its head with monotonous regularity is the one about 'more trains than usual needing attention at this time'. At 2130? Hardly.
I don't know what the appeal of this particular explanation is, I mean, I'm sure it isn't any more palatable to intending passengers than most others. At least 'shortage of a driver', or 'unavailability of a crew member', are more plausible (and probably true).

Late last night three services that I noticed on journey check on different routes were cancelled due to 'more trains than usual requiring repairs' - I would have thought that they would have had plenty of spare units with all the planned and unplanned cancellations and if there was a problem with the actual unit booked to run the service they would be cancelled due to 'a fault on this train' (I didn't notice any cancelled due to 'more trains than usual requiring repairs' until around 20:00.
 

PHILIPE

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Late last night three services that I noticed on journey check on different routes were cancelled due to 'more trains than usual requiring repairs' - I would have thought that they would have had plenty of spare units with all the planned and unplanned cancellations and if there was a problem with the actual unit booked to run the service they would be cancelled due to 'a fault on this train' (I didn't notice any cancelled due to 'more trains than usual requiring repairs' until around 20:00.

"More trains than usual requiring repairs" is catching on with TOCs now. I recall it being used by GWR last year and it is something I could accept and understand just on an odd occasion. This led to queries about the definition of the terminology "more than usual" as it had appeared day in and day out for months on end.
 

geoffk

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Yes there are tight turnround times at Victoria but nearly an hour at Leeds, so an extra 8 minutes each way will not affect departure times westbound.
I've been told by a Northern manager whose advice I trust that adding the four extra stops to the Leeds - Vic service (eight stops or 16 minutes on a return trip) increases the driving time of the Leeds crews beyond what is permitted. I'm not familiar with these permitted limits, which of course are there for a reason. The question, is could one or two extra stops, rather than four, be accommodated?
 

AndrewE

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"More trains than usual requiring repairs" is catching on with TOCs now. I recall it being used by GWR last year and it is something I could accept and understand just on an odd occasion. This led to queries about the definition of the terminology "more than usual" as it had appeared day in and day out for months on end.
How can they justify that excuse now?
It is understandable during the leaf-fall season (although it would be nice if there were enough spare trains (and staff) to allow tyre-turning to be done while putting maintenance spare sets out during the day and doing the planned day-maintenance overnight.)
Sadly with the "service" deliverable a long way down the TOC and ROSCOs' priorities it just ain't gonna happen.
 

DC2001

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"More trains than usual requiring repairs" is catching on with TOCs now. I recall it being used by GWR last year and it is something I could accept and understand just on an odd occasion. This led to queries about the definition of the terminology "more than usual" as it had appeared day in and day out for months on end.

I think most passengers can accept 'more trains than usual requiring repairs' occasionally but when it is used almost every day they begin to question if the number requiring repairs is actually more than usual. Also when large numbers of trains are being cancelled due to no train crew it is rather frustrating hearing the 'more trains than usual requiring repairs' excuse - maybe one of the trains that doesn't have train crew could be used!
 

northernchris

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Or could it be that there's more trains on depot requiring repair but plenty of stock in sidings. However due to lack of drivers they can't be brought in to use
 

DC2001

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Or could it be that there's more trains on depot requiring repair but plenty of stock in sidings. However due to lack of drivers they can't be brought in to use
Could be, however, I would have thought that 'shortage of train drivers' would be the appropriate excuse here as it is the lack of staff that prevents these trains from being used and not a shortage of rolling stock.
 

northernchris

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Could be, however, I would have thought that 'shortage of train drivers' would be the appropriate excuse here as it is the lack of staff that prevents these trains from being used and not a shortage of rolling stock.

Potentially, but I wouldn't place too much reliance on the reasons given on JourneyCheck as the root cause could be more trains requiring repair
 

156420

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The “more trains than usual” reason has been used on occasions when the reason for the cancellation has been a unit that was due to operate that service is about to bust its exam mileage threshold, as a result it can’t come into passenger service, but can run ECS for that journey only.

Unfortunately, with the fleet as stretched as it is, this genuinely does happen on occasion.

If for whatever reason, due to unit displacement from disruption, incorrect allocations on Genius/Web Gemini (due to units being wrong way round) etc a unit was travelling from York to Leeds for example and it’s found it would go over its exam tolerance threshold at Church Fenton, then it would have to come out of service at Church Fenton and go ECS to Neville Hill.
 

DC2001

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Potentially, but I wouldn't place too much reliance on the reasons given on JourneyCheck as the root cause could be more trains requiring repair
I quite often take them with a pinch of salt now - reasonably often I have seen trains cancelled at Manchester Victoria 'due to a shortage of train drivers' when the driver and conductor were sat on the train ready for it to leave!
 

Carlisle

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This is about contracts not ownership.
True, but the present system of short franchises has probably been a major factor in these tricky issues continually being shunted into the too difficult category.
 

fowler9

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Late last night three services that I noticed on journey check on different routes were cancelled due to 'more trains than usual requiring repairs' - I would have thought that they would have had plenty of spare units with all the planned and unplanned cancellations and if there was a problem with the actual unit booked to run the service they would be cancelled due to 'a fault on this train' (I didn't notice any cancelled due to 'more trains than usual requiring repairs' until around 20:00.
The 17:55 Lime Street to Oxford Rd was cancelled tonight due to more trains than usual needing repairs. Bit of a bad one to cancel.
 

Llanigraham

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How can they justify that excuse now?
It is understandable during the leaf-fall season (although it would be nice if there were enough spare trains (and staff) to allow tyre-turning to be done while putting maintenance spare sets out during the day and doing the planned day-maintenance overnight.)
Sadly with the "service" deliverable a long way down the TOC and ROSCOs' priorities it just ain't gonna happen.

Who says the repairs needed are to the wheels?
There are many reasons, from vandalism to failed horns to broken windows.
 

DC2001

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The 17:55 Lime Street to Oxford Rd was cancelled tonight due to more trains than usual needing repairs. Bit of a bad one to cancel.
They do seem to have a bit of an unfortunate habit of cancelling popular evening peak trains.
 

northernchris

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They do seem to have a bit of an unfortunate habit of cancelling popular evening peak trains.

Peaks are when the fleet is most stretched. I do wonder if there's a logic which is used to decide which trains are chosen to be cancelled though
 

DC2001

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Peaks are when the fleet is most stretched. I do wonder if there's a logic which is used to decide which trains are chosen to be cancelled though
Quite often it seems to be all stops between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport that get cancelled due to late running (last minute throughout the day). I hate traveling to/from the stations on this line - I can usually tell that the train isn't going to stop from how late it is expected to be. Today was rather strange as they cancelled the 16:00 Piccadilly (ex-Barrow 13:53) at Burnage, Gatley and Heald Green which was only running 6 minutes late and 3 minutes early by the Airport.

Usually it is services to Wigan, Southport, Liverpool, Leeds (from Victoria) & Buxton/Hazel Grove services that I have noticed however I have noticed quite a few Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester Airport and Hazel Grove to Blackpool North services cancelled recently; I am sure that there are others.
 

fowler9

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22:50 and 22:53 from Parkway to Lime Street both cancelled due to a fault on the train. Not more faults than usual this time. They do seem to have a lot of faults at the mo. Much like my local Arriva bus service it is reaching unusable levels now.
 

Bovverboy

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Quite often it seems to be all stops between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport that get cancelled due to late running (last minute throughout the day). I hate traveling to/from the stations on this line - I can usually tell that the train isn't going to stop from how late it is expected to be. Today was rather strange as they cancelled the 16:00 Piccadilly (ex-Barrow 13:53) at Burnage, Gatley and Heald Green which was only running 6 minutes late and 3 minutes early by the Airport.

Six minutes late doesn't seem to be disastrous, especially when you consider that the train involved has an extended layover at the Airport. (It's scheduled to leave at 1634, instead of the normal xx.29). Calling at the missed stations may have resulted in the following ex-Cleethorpes TPE being delayed by a couple of minutes, but, there again, a couple of minutes doesn't seem here nor there.
I see that the ex-Barrow actually departed its originating point 17L, and was still 12L by Wigan North Western. Perhaps the decision to skip the Airport line stops was made a little too early.
The above happens a lot, i.e. where a late-running train is authorised to skip stops, but actually finishes up in front of schedule.
 

DC2001

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Six minutes late doesn't seem to be disastrous, especially when you consider that the train involved has an extended layover at the Airport. (It's scheduled to leave at 1634, instead of the normal xx.29). Calling at the missed stations may have resulted in the following ex-Cleethorpes TPE being delayed by a couple of minutes, but, there again, a couple of minutes doesn't seem here nor there.
I see that the ex-Barrow actually departed its originating point 17L, and was still 12L by Wigan North Western. Perhaps the decision to skip the Airport line stops was made a little too early.
The above happens a lot, i.e. where a late-running train is authorised to skip stops, but actually finishes up in front of schedule.
Usually they seem to cancel the Airport line stops around when the train is at Manchester Oxford Road (from personal experience) which may/should then be announced before arrival at Piccadilly - sometimes an announcement is made but it isn't clear that it is running non-stop to the Airport. I wonder if someone didn't realise that it was a Class 195 that was running the service (I assume) which can catch up reasonable amounts of time when stations are a reasonable distance apart.

If it had maintained the 6-minute delay all the way to the Airport I don't think the ex-Cleethorpes TPE would have caught up with it until just after Heald Green as it calls at East Didsbury. At least they didn't cancel Heald Green and East Didsbury on the return journey!
 

Bovverboy

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Quite often it seems to be all stops between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport that get cancelled due to late running (last minute throughout the day).

Here's a good one for you. Today's 2210 Airport - Barrow is coming up as starting from Oxford Road 'due to the late arrival of an inbound service'. The 'inbound service' has only just Lancaster, and it's running six, yes six, minutes late. What's more, it's shown as running through to the Airport!
 

Dr Hoo

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Here's a good one for you. Today's 2210 Airport - Barrow is coming up as starting from Oxford Road 'due to the late arrival of an inbound service'. The 'inbound service' has only just Lancaster, and it's running six, yes six, minutes late. What's more, it's shown as running through to the Airport!
I am struggling to see what this has got to do with Sunday cancellations.
 

Bovverboy

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I am struggling to see what this has got to do with Sunday cancellations.

It hasn't, we've gone a bit off topic. Perhaps we need a thread entitled 'Why are Northern allowed to cancel services any day of the week, seemingly at will'.

(P.S. With reference to post #382, the Barrow - Airport service referred to above been terminated at Oxford Road, despite only being 2L. Reason given crew issues, so perhaps one or both of the crew need a legal break before setting off back.)
 
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156420

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It hasn't, we've gone a bit off topic. Perhaps we need a thread entitled 'Why are Northern allowed to cancel services any day of the week, seemingly at will'.

(P.S. With reference to post #382, the Barrow - Airport service referred to above been terminated at Oxford Road, despite only being 2L. Reason given crew issues, so perhaps one or both of the crew need a legal break before setting off back.)

No forward crew, the crew get relieved at Oxford Road, nothing to do with requiring a break.

And re using the “late arrival of inward service” from RTT, it’s not necessarily the lateness but it’s just a “YI” code from Trust, as in a reaction to the previous cancellation/delay.

Anyway, back on topic now!
 

DC2001

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No forward crew, the crew get relieved at Oxford Road, nothing to do with requiring a break.

And re using the “late arrival of inward service” from RTT, it’s not necessarily the lateness but it’s just a “YI” code from Trust, as in a reaction to the previous cancellation/delay.

Anyway, back on topic now!
Anyone got any predictions for which routes will have planned cancellations this Sunday? There's engineering work on so they can give that as an excuse to cancel trains on lines without any engineering work on which other trains are running!
 

LeylandLen

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I quite often take them with a pinch of salt now - reasonably often I have seen trains cancelled at Manchester Victoria 'due to a shortage of train drivers' when the driver and conductor were sat on the train ready for it to leave!

I presume it can depend on how far the driver you see can take the train. He/she might be expected to change with another driver along the route ; that 2nd driver may not be available. And drivers hours come into it ; as I see it they can only drive a certain number of hours on the routes they have signed.
 

DC2001

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I presume it can depend on how far the driver you see can take the train. He/she might be expected to change with another driver along the route ; that 2nd driver may not be available. And drivers hours come into it ; as I see it they can only drive a certain number of hours on the routes they have signed.
On several occasions I have spoke to the drivers themselves and they have usually said that they were expecting to take the train through and had just come on from a break. I suppose it could be a shortage of drivers at the other end to bring the train back.
 

Dr Day

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Been through many of these types of threads but still struggling to understand (as someone not working directly in the industry) why new recruits have to be on exactly the same Ts and Cs as existing ones. There must be many examples of people working side by side doing the same job who for historic reasons dating back to the time they were first employed have, say, different travel facilities, pensions or salaries. I appreciate it would complicate things for rostering/diagramming but what other reasons are there? Not intending to be union-bashing, just genuinely want to understand.
 

JamesT

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Been through many of these types of threads but still struggling to understand (as someone not working directly in the industry) why new recruits have to be on exactly the same Ts and Cs as existing ones. There must be many examples of people working side by side doing the same job who for historic reasons dating back to the time they were first employed have, say, different travel facilities, pensions or salaries. I appreciate it would complicate things for rostering/diagramming but what other reasons are there? Not intending to be union-bashing, just genuinely want to understand.

Splitting the conditions of the workforce reduces the power of the union to collectively bargain. If everyone is on the same terms then the employer has to come up with an offer agreeable to the vast majority. Whereas if there’s lots of different groups the employer can work on each in turn with less risk of a backlash.
 
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