Been through many of these types of threads but still struggling to understand (as someone not working directly in the industry) why new recruits have to be on exactly the same Ts and Cs as existing ones. There must be many examples of people working side by side doing the same job who for historic reasons dating back to the time they were first employed have, say, different travel facilities, pensions or salaries. I appreciate it would complicate things for rostering/diagramming but what other reasons are there? Not intending to be union-bashing, just genuinely want to understand.
Usually they announce that there will be planned cancellations sometime on Friday afternoon but they don't actually show which trains are cancelled until Saturday/Sunday. The replacement bus timetable is never made public until Sunday.Well it's Friday and so far no notice if cancellations. Surely they would know by now what the case was.
I've seen one tweet a few weeks ago where Northern told customers to check the website on Saturday to see if their train was running, which is totally unacceptable
Well it's Friday and so far no notice if cancellations. Surely they would know by now what the case was.
I've seen one tweet a few weeks ago where Northern told customers to check the website on Saturday to see if their train was running, which is totally unacceptable
[*]Manchester Victoria – Blackpool North: Customers are advised to use other train services between Manchester and Blackpool. In addition, rail replacement services will be running between Blackpool North - Layton and Preston – Bolton
[*]Lancaster – Morecambe: Full rail replacement service in operation
[*]Wigan – Stalybridge : Replacement bus from Wigan to Bolton (via Westhoughton) Replacement bus from Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge
With staff morale being so low (generally speaking) in the western side and train crew not being contractually obliged to work Sunday's these cancellations will continue.One trip down the Hope Valley cancelled today, 8.31 from Piccadilly and return from Sheffield at 10.17. "This service was cancelled throughout due to an issue with the train crew (TG)."
The Peak District was heaving with cars, bikes and walkers today. Cars parked everywhere. An accident at Hathersage blocked the main road for a time and the 272 bus was diverted into Sheffield via the A57. The railway should be picking up lots more of these people, at present only carrying about 2% at best. It can't be relied upon, so why risk it when the modern car's a much more flexible and reliable way to travel?
Your problem is that unless these become permenent changes then you end up creating many more STP (short term planning) diagrams, and drivers do not have to come in for these, so the service is likely to deteriorate further. Another problem is that some of the routes suggested for saving diagrams are very busy including Manchester to Preston. For example you are suggesting Preston to Blackpool should reduce from 4 to 2 trains per hour. Great in theory, and may work in winter but given that 4 trains are full and standing at this time of year and will be through the illuminations, where do the extra passengers go? Again Liverpool to Manchester stoppers are very busy. Also Blackpool is a traincrew depot so by running fewer services there would often mean crews who would have been working the now non running trains travelling passenger on the limited other services, extending the time it takes to get to Preston as they'll then have to wait around for example to work a York service, which means they may not be able to be as productive during their diagram.With staff morale being so low (generally speaking) in the western side and train crew not being contractually obliged to work Sunday's these cancellations will continue.
This weekend saw 7 diagrams fully cancelled as planned cancellations (along with other unplanned cancellations):
- Manchester Victoria – Blackpool North: Customers are advised to use other train services between Manchester and Blackpool. In addition, rail replacement services will be running between Blackpool North - Layton and Preston – Bolton (3 diagrams)
- Lancaster – Morecambe: Full rail replacement service in operation (1 diagram)
- Wigan – Stalybridge : Replacement bus from Wigan to Bolton (via Westhoughton) Replacement bus from Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge (3 diagrams)
It doesn't help that the 'planned cancellations' mean several stations with no trains at all. Personally at least some of this could be avoided if the planned cancellations were on services calling at stations which see 2tph (trains per hour) and putting longer trains on remaining services (where possible)
For example:
Obviously the above, saving 11 diagrams, would be unpopular for many however would allow for more comfortable journeys from stations which have had replacement bus services. If there still aren't enough crew for the remaining diagrams then odd diagrams can be cancelled from other routes (as usually happens).
- Cancel all Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport services - stations between Liverpool and Manchester Oxford Road are served by the stopper. Frequent connections are available at Manchester Oxford Road to Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport. East Didsbury and Manchester Airport would still be served by the all stops on the Styal Line Chat Moss stopper. Birchwood could be served by additional stop orders on the Liverpool to Norwich route if East Midlands Railway (EMR) were willing to do this (if not it is still served by the stopper) The other stops are also served by EMR Saves 3tph
- Reduce frequency of the Manchester Piccadilly to Glossop/Hadfield services to 1tph. All stops would still be served hourly and turnaround time at Piccadily would be slightly greater reducing risk of knock on delays. Alternatively miss out every third service and keep current turnaround times. Saves 1tph
- Terminate/start Manchester Airport/Manchester Oxford Road (some AM) to Blackpool North services at Preston. Kirkham & Wesham, Poulton-le-Fylde & Blackpool North are all served by alternative services including the Blackpool North to Manchester Victoria service. Saves 1tph Or cancel all services to save an additional 3tph (those who need Piccadilly/Airport can change at Victoria or get the tram if travelling from a GM station- they could even see if TransPennine Express (TPE) would relax their no travel between Bolton and Manchester policy) Heald Green is served by the all stops on the Styal Line Chat Moss stopper.
- Terminate Barrow/Windermere services at Preston. Passengers for Wigan can change onto the Virgin to Euston at either Lancaster or Preston. Passengers for Manchester could use either the Northern or TPE services between Preston and Manchester Airport. Passengers between Wigan and Manchester could use services from Wigan Wallgate or the Stalybridge service via Bolton- those desperate for Piccadilly or Manchester Airport can change at Salford Crescent. Saves 2tph
- Terminate/start Leeds to Blackpool North services at Preston so no need for crew between Preston and Blackpool North. Poulton-le-Fylde & Blackpool North are all served by alternative services. Saves 1tph
Please correct me if there are any mistakes/station which would end up not being served.
That's something the TOC cannot guarantee to deliver & the DfT are well aware of. It all ends up in the usual muddle as it has for the last 20 plus years. I see nothing changing unless they offer the unions a gold plated deal.Given it is a known fact that train staff in certain areas are not contractually expected to work on Sundays, how would this particular matter be seen by the DfT when each new franchise is granted when the timetabling of Sunday services are part of the franchise requirement?
The above plan seems more focussed on saving unit diagrams than traincrew ones.
Weekday early morning and evening services all call at all stops between Preston and Bolton, leaving Blackpool North about 5 minutes earlier. If these could be strengthened either with additional stop orders each week or just added to the timetable at the next timetable change. They did add these on 07/08 calling additionally at Leyland, Adlington & Blackrod 11:00 & 12:00 ex-Blackpool with the train to Manchester Airport being on time by Piccadilly and the Oxford Road service being only a couple of minutes late; these had more passengers than they usually would due to previous trains being cancelled with a problem at Salford Crescent. Towards Blackpool the 22:43 (regular service) calls at Lostock, Blackrod and Leyland and tends to be a couple of minutes early in Blackpool being booked to take 2 minutes longer than the regular daytime services which don't call.On Manchester Victoria to Blackpool services I would suggest serving Lostock, Blackrod and Adlington (Blackrod and Adlington could be 2 hourly if pathing too tight) by reducing calls at Buckshaw and Horwich to hourly still supplemented by replacement bus.
Ticket acceptance should be arranged and potentially still a bus service to Bolton and Daisy Hill.Westhoughton (where the town is also served by Daisy Hill station)
That's something the TOC cannot guarantee to deliver & the DfT are well aware of. It all ends up in the usual muddle as it has for the last 20 plus years. I see nothing changing unless they offer the unions a gold plated deal.
Yes but the old Arriva Rail North and First North Western came together when Abelio had the franchise, and I can't ever remember this level of disruption then. It was left to tick along, and tick along it did.There should have been open discussion with the rail unions prior to the award of the last Northern franchise, where the rail unions' stated position of not having their staff contracted to work on a Sunday publically put into the public domain and on news media, with the result being the new franchise not being required to operate Sunday services.
There should have been open discussion with the rail unions prior to the award of the last Northern franchise, where the rail unions' stated position of not having their staff contracted to work on a Sunday publically put into the public domain and on news media, with the result being the new franchise not being required to operate Sunday services.
Do you have anything to back up the claim that the “rail unions stated position of not having their staff contracted to work on a Sunday”
Then this government came along and decided they wanted to go to war with the unions. When have you ever seen a Tory government seek union dialogue? Unless some common ground can be found to resurrect the drivers harmonisation, which looks unlikely, nothing will change.
How often does this happen in practice?which has Metrolink for which ticket acceptance should be granted
Try thisIn the eight years that I have been a member of this website, I have seen quite a number of postings in threads concerning Northern that have stated such a position.
The ASLEF Charter continues to underpin the union's industrial strategy and serves as the symbol that drives ASLEF towards establishing conditions of employment that provide the benchmark for best practice within the railway industry. As evidenced by the changes adopted at AAD, the Charter is intended to be far more than a wish list. First and foremost it provides a platform for negotiation through which companies can begin to understand and meet our members' aspirations. As pay and conditions of our members advance, so the Charter must continue to evolve to keep pace and reflect changing priorities.
The revised Charter, as agreed at AAD 2018, is set out below:
...
Try this
https://www.aslef.org.uk/charter.html
Are the Unions opposed to Sunday working ?
Yes or No ?
If the answer is "No", then the aspirations of ASLEF (whose link you quote above giving their view on DOO near to the foot of the article) are then somewhat frustrated by members of the RMT union who are not contractually obliged to work on a Sunday. A train with a driver available but no conductor/guard does not go anywhere.
It is the fact that there have been postings made on this website that certain members of the RMT rail union take the view that as they are not contractually obliged to work on a Sunday, then it is their right not to make themselves available for work.
Any particular TOC ? A number of them already have Sunday working agreementsIt may well be the ASLEF leadership who want Sundays in the working week, but it's certainly not the view of the members who have recently voted on this matter and very strongly rejected it.
All too often when these cancellations occur, they are taken by surprise and don't seem to have enough buses to serve stations where trains are withdrawn at the last minute.
In my view, Northern should also be much more ready to arrange taxis for passengers who miss connections or are left behind by trains too full to board. They're saving rather a lot of money by not paying the drivers for days they aren't contracted to work, so there should be money available for 'customer care'.
Any particular TOC ? A number of them already have Sunday working agreements
It may well be the ASLEF leadership who want Sundays in the working week, but it's certainly not the view of the members who have recently voted on this matter and very strongly rejected it.
Northern.
The subject of this thread.
If you speak to drivers you will find that the matter is not as black and white as this - the majority of drivers accept that rostered Sundays will happen eventually, however the recent 'New Deal for Drivers' was rejected because the drivers looked into how many Sundays the company could potentially get them working and it came out at 'most of them'; this element of the deal created a lot of the negativity because the drivers want to keep their work life balance that they have and there was a risk of having to work potentially 3 Sundays in a month if rosters were really clever.It may well be the ASLEF leadership who want Sundays in the working week, but it's certainly not the view of the members who have recently voted on this matter and very strongly rejected it.
I don't think it's so clear cut. There are many drivers who will quite happily have Sundays in the working week but it was widely acknowledged that that was a bad deal and left many questions unanswered about how rest days and shift patterns could be altered. It was also acknowledged late on that it wouldn't work and there would still be shifts uncovered so the company would try and force more Sundays in. There were too many things that were said verbally but not actually in the document that was being voted on. The deal was also not just about Sundays but also about harmonizing conditions, something that should have possibly been negotiated separately.It may well be the ASLEF leadership who want Sundays in the working week, but it's certainly not the view of the members who have recently voted on this matter and very strongly rejected it.
Given that the Sunday timetable has fewer services than the weekday/Saturday timetable, I imagine that that drivers would work roughly 5/8 (or less) Sundays on a 5-day week or 1/2 on a 4-day week; most drivers (I imagine) would also prefer to work a Saturday & Sunday of the same weekend and then not the following weekend rather than working Saturday one weekend and Sunday the next.If you speak to drivers you will find that the matter is not as black and white as this - the majority of drivers accept that rostered Sundays will happen eventually, however the recent 'New Deal for Drivers' was rejected because the drivers looked into how many Sundays the company could potentially get them working and it came out at 'most of them'; this element of the deal created a lot of the negativity because the drivers want to keep their work life balance that they have and there was a risk of having to work potentially 3 Sundays in a month if rosters were really clever.
If you speak to drivers you will find that the matter is not as black and white as this - the majority of drivers accept that rostered Sundays will happen eventually, however the recent 'New Deal for Drivers' was rejected because the drivers looked into how many Sundays the company could potentially get them working and it came out at 'most of them'; this element of the deal created a lot of the negativity because the drivers want to keep their work life balance that they have and there was a risk of having to work potentially 3 Sundays in a month if rosters were really clever.