Signal Passed at Danger

[Chris999999]

I visited the North Norfolk Line last Sunday, but some services were cancelled because apparently a driver had failed to stop at a signal, and was not allowed to drive any more.

Are these issues handled by the North Norfolk Line or does some external agency become involved?

 

[paul1609]

I visited the North Norfolk Line last Sunday, but some services were cancelled because apparently a driver had failed to stop at a signal, and was not allowed to drive any more.

Are these issues handled by the North Norfolk Line or does some external agency become involved?

Depends on the circumstances if its a reportable incident the Heritage Line will report it to the ORR.
In most cases the line will carry out their own investigation, write a report detailing their actions to prevent a re-occurence and submit it to the ORR for comment.

 

[Edders23]

Bearing in mind the slow speeds involved and the low numbers of active trains could there be a "serious" spad on a heritage line ?

 

[headshot119]

Bearing in mind the slow speeds involved and the low numbers of active trains could there be a "serious" spad on a heritage line ?

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that low speed is equal to a safe environment.

RAIB report into a low speed SPAD at Paddington that hit a lineside structure and blocked adjacent lines

Low speed derailment at the GCR (Not a SPAD but similar outcome)

 

[Bertie the bus]

Bearing in mind the slow speeds involved and the low numbers of active trains could there be a "serious" spad on a heritage line ?

Considering the Cannon St accident involved a train running at 10 mph and 2 people died I would say the answer is yes.

 

[Cowley]

Considering the Cannon St accident involved a train running at 10 mph and 2 people died I would say the answer is yes.

And also considering that a lot of preserved mk1s are probably not as structurally sound as they perhaps should be...

 

[leezer3]

IMHO the Quorn video above isn't quite the same at all.

It shows the safety system (catch point) working exactly as designed and mitigating the consequences of the SPAD by keeping the train off the main line.
Sure, the loco got a little bent, but it prevented the much larger potential issue.

In Canon Street & Paddington, the objects hit were unintentional, and I don't think can be compared directly

 

[Bertie the bus]

So we're all safe as long as the train intentionally hits things then. That's what tends to happen with SPADs; they intentionally hit things.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Low speed derailment at the GCR (Not a SPAD but similar outcome)/QUOTE]

Forgive my stupidity, but if a signal is passed at danger, why is it not a SPAD? The video at Quorn clearly shows the engine passing a signal at danger

 

[edwin_m]

Forgive my stupidity, but if a signal is passed at danger, why is it not a SPAD? The video at Quorn clearly shows the engine passing a signal at danger

IIRC the signaller failed to reverse the trap points (they're not catch points incidentally) so couldn't clear the signal. Thinking there was some failure in the equipment they authorised the driver to pass it at danger. I don't think that counts as a SPAD. Perhaps with the better view from the cab of a diesel or electric the driver would have seen the points set wrongly before moving towards them.

 

[pdeaves]

edwin_m is right. If you are authorised to pass a signal at danger, you do not pass a signal at danger! The difference is whether someone in authority (the signaller) tells you to or not.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

IIRC the signaller failed to reverse the trap points (they're not catch points incidentally) so couldn't clear the signal. Thinking there was some failure in the equipment they authorised the driver to pass it at danger. I don't think that counts as a SPAD. Perhaps with the better view from the cab of a diesel or electric the driver would have seen the points set wrongly before moving towards them.

Aha that makes sense then - thanks for explaining.

 

[Shenandoah]

The initial post says this occurred on the North Norfolk line. Subsequent posts have mentioned other places.
What is not reported here is were any passengers at risk, or hurt? What, if any, subsequent actions have been taken?

 

[bluegoblin7]

IIRC the signaller failed to reverse the trap points (they're not catch points incidentally) so couldn't clear the signal. Thinking there was some failure in the equipment they authorised the driver to pass it at danger. I don't think that counts as a SPAD. Perhaps with the better view from the cab of a diesel or electric the driver would have seen the points set wrongly before moving towards them.

Different railways classify things like this differently, but it would generally be considered as a SPAR - Signal Passed at Red. On my railway a driver would be expected to proceed at caution and stop short of any points set incorrectly. There were formerly different categories of SPAD depending on what the cause was; this one would, at face value, go down as signaller error.

And just for clarification (as both terms have been used and are often confused, and no explanations have been given) - catch points are (generally) used to protect sections against runaway vehicles ('catching' them) whilst trap points are (again generally, as always there are exceptions) used to protect through lines by diverting trains away until a route is set ('trapping' them in a loop or siding, for instance).

 

[paul1609]

And also considering that a lot of preserved mk1s are probably not as structurally sound as they perhaps should be...

I think the use of the "a lot" is perhaps a little ott clearly in your neck of the woods there has been an incident recently where that is so but on the railway I work on and I would suggest a lot of the others the coaches have structural work done on them that is basically the same as they would have done on BR and many of the overhauls have been pretty substantial given the age now of the MK1s.

 

[The BIgman1234]

Different railways classify things like this differently, but it would generally be considered as a SPAR - Signal Passed at Red. On my railway a driver would be expected to proceed at caution and stop short of any points set incorrectly. There were formerly different categories of SPAD depending on what the cause was; this one would, at face value, go down as signaller error.

And just for clarification (as both terms have been used and are often confused, and no explanations have been given) - catch points are (generally) used to protect sections against runaway vehicles ('catching' them) whilst trap points are (again generally, as always there are exceptions) used to protect through lines by diverting trains away until a route is set ('trapping' them in a loop or siding, for instance).

I always tell the driver to stop short of the points and tell him to check they are in the correct position for the move . Even if the route has been check a dozen times .

 

[edwin_m]

I think the use of the "a lot" is perhaps a little ott clearly in your neck of the woods there has been an incident recently where that is so but on the railway I work on and I would suggest a lot of the others the coaches have structural work done on them that is basically the same as they would have done on BR and many of the overhauls have been pretty substantial given the age now of the MK1s.

However even an as-new Mk1 is less crashworthy than anything in day-to-day service on the main line.

 

[CockneySparrow]

Bearing in mind the slow speeds involved and the low numbers of active trains could there be a "serious" spad on a heritage line ?

Yes quite easily, its single line for starters, what if theres another train coming in opposite direction

Or if the points aint set, could be a derailment

 

[Edders23]

I think the use of the "a lot" is perhaps a little ott clearly in your neck of the woods there has been an incident recently where that is so but on the railway I work on and I would suggest a lot of the others the coaches have structural work done on them that is basically the same as they would have done on BR and many of the overhauls have been pretty substantial given the age now of the MK1s.

I think that could be said of many heritage railways maintenance is done to a high standard on most lines

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

IIRC the signaller failed to reverse the trap points (they're not catch points incidentally) so couldn't clear the signal. Thinking there was some failure in the equipment they authorised the driver to pass it at danger. I don't think that counts as a SPAD. Perhaps with the better view from the cab of a diesel or electric the driver would have seen the points set wrongly before moving towards them.

That would explain a lot about the sequence of events as shown on the video but what puzzled me at the time and still does, was why there appeared to be a slow reaction from the footplate after the first tender wheel left the rails.

 

[leezer3]

The initial post says this occurred on the North Norfolk line. Subsequent posts have mentioned other places.
What is not reported here is were any passengers at risk, or hurt? What, if any, subsequent actions have been taken?

IIRC they overshot the stop board protecting the foot crossing at Sheringham.
The crossing gates are always closed when a train is approaching (to protect against this scenario), so as far as I know minimal to no risk.

Can't comment on actions etc.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The initial post says this occurred on the North Norfolk line. Subsequent posts have mentioned other places. What is not reported here is were any passengers at risk, or hurt? What, if any, subsequent actions have been taken?

Perhaps we should wait until a) the MNR has carried out its own investigation and b) wait for the report if it is deemed appropriate to appear in the public domain

 

[2HAP]

Yes quite easily, its single line for starters, what if theres another train coming in opposite direction

Or if the points aint set, could be a derailment

This could happen...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedewald_train_collision

 

[Belperpete]

IIRC the signaller failed to reverse the trap points (they're not catch points incidentally) so couldn't clear the signal. Thinking there was some failure in the equipment they authorised the driver to pass it at danger. I don't think that counts as a SPAD. Perhaps with the better view from the cab of a diesel or electric the driver would have seen the points set wrongly before moving towards them.

That is not my understanding of what happened. I recall that there was a misunderstanding between the signalman and the loco crew, with the driver believing he had been authorised to pass the signal due to the fireman incorrectly relaying the message from the signaller. Which would make it a SPAD.

However, a SPAD is a SPAD, whether it has been authorised by the signaller or not.

 

[ComUtoR]

However, a SPAD is a SPAD, whether it has been authorised by the signaller or not.

Can you explain this further please. I really don't understand your comment and neither do I believe its accurate.

 

[pdeaves]

However, a SPAD is a SPAD, whether it has been authorised by the signaller or not.

There is a difference between a SPAD and a SPAR (signal passed at red). It's down to authorisation.

 

[BRblue]

There is a difference between a SPAD and a SPAR (signal passed at red). It's down to authorisation.

I think you'll find it's not... a SPAR is when a train has passed a signal at red due to a reason apart from driver error.
A signaller putting a signal back in front of a train or a change of aspect (green to red) and the train is to close to stop... if it then passes said said signal at red it is a SPAR.
Nothing to do with authorisation.

 

[Bovverboy]

That would explain a lot about the sequence of events as shown on the video but what puzzled me at the time and still does, was why there appeared to be a slow reaction from the footplate after the first tender wheel left the rails.

Perhaps the crew fell over?

 

[Flying Phil]

That would explain a lot about the sequence of events as shown on the video but what puzzled me at the time and still does, was why there appeared to be a slow reaction from the footplate after the first tender wheel left the rails.

Not an expert at all, but the controls on a steam locomotive are very crude devices mechanically and it is the skill of the drivers to get a smooth operation. To get the steam brake or vacuum brake to have an effect is a matter of several seconds, unless they are already being gently applied.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Not an expert at all, but the controls on a steam locomotive are very crude devices mechanically and it is the skill of the drivers to get a smooth operation. To get the steam brake or vacuum brake to have an effect is a matter of several seconds, unless they are already being gently applied.

It was going very slowly. Have another look at the video.Signal was right by the box but there was no evident flagman. As I said before, all very mystifying.