Post-brexit - time for a republic?

[DerekC]

I mean no insult to HMQ personally, but the current Borising of our unwritten constitution makes you wonder if there is any point at all in her having a formal role in government. If all she can do is go along with the Prime Minister's advice and all the Privy Council can do is advise her to comply, the whole thing becomes a charade. I wonder if one effect of the whole Brexit debacle will be for us to realise just how unfit for purpose our whole ramshackle governmental arrangement is. Do others agree - and if so what changes should we make?

 

[507021]

I mean no insult to HMQ personally, but the current Borising of our unwritten constitution makes you wonder if there is any point at all in her having a formal role in government. If all she can do is go along with the Prime Minister's advice and all the Privy Council can do is advise her to comply, the whole thing becomes a charade. I wonder if one effect of the whole Brexit debacle will be for us to realise just how unfit for purpose our whole ramshackle governmental arrangement is. Do others agree - and if so what changes should we make?

I was having the exact same conversation with my Dad yesterday, both of us think exactly the same as you do.

 

[HSTEd]

Except this is not really a constitutional crisis of the sort that the Queen can help with.
Boris has not prorogued parliament with immediate effect, and he has not done anything that significantly affects Parliament's ability to remove him in any serious manner. He has not given himself any dictatorial powers or removed human rights or anything like that.

When Parliament meets next week it is entirely free to remove Boris should it so choose, it is entirely free to reverse the prorogation, should it so choose.
However it will not choose to do so, because ultimately Boris still commands the confidence of the house.

People are blowing this up out of proportion because a bunch of Tory remainers are upset that Boris is calling their bluff.

 

[cactustwirly]

Except this is not really a constitutional crisis of the sort that the Queen can help with.
Boris has not prorogued parliament with immediate effect, and he has not done anything that significantly affects Parliament's ability to remove him in any serious manner. He has not given himself any dictatorial powers or removed human rights or anything like that.

When Parliament meets next week it is entirely free to remove Boris should it so choose, it is entirely free to reverse the prorogation, should it so choose.
However it will not choose to do so, because ultimately Boris still commands the confidence of the house.

People are blowing this up out of proportion because a bunch of Tory remainers are upset that Boris is calling their bluff.

It is though, Boris is shutting down parliament just because parliament disagrees with his Brexit stance.
MPs are elected representatives of the people, and the prorogation denies them the chance to represent the people in stopping a no-deal Brexit.
The Queen isn't elected, so shouldn't be able to stop parliament.
Although I do agree that the monarchy should be kept as it brings in money in tourism, but they should have no role in the running of the country

 

[Bantamzen]

Except this is not really a constitutional crisis of the sort that the Queen can help with.
Boris has not prorogued parliament with immediate effect, and he has not done anything that significantly affects Parliament's ability to remove him in any serious manner. He has not given himself any dictatorial powers or removed human rights or anything like that.

When Parliament meets next week it is entirely free to remove Boris should it so choose, it is entirely free to reverse the prorogation, should it so choose.
However it will not choose to do so, because ultimately Boris still commands the confidence of the house.

People are blowing this up out of proportion because a bunch of Tory remainers are upset that Boris is calling their bluff.

If you really believe that the BoJoBot has the confidence of the House, you've either missed the events of the last few weeks, or are in denial. The very reason he asked / instructed the Queen for the prorogue was because he knew the House was rallying against his intentions to move to a no deal scenario. A number of Conservative MPs have already indicated that they will back moves to prevent him doing so, the leader of the Scottish branch has resigned the party, effectively wiping out the working majority of one. He thinks he has bluffed those against no deal, but this hand is far from over.

But what he has done is show that there is an element of his party, and those wishing to leave that they will stop at nothing to get what they want, at any price. Of course I say at any price because they won't actually pay it, that honour will be bestowed on us ordinary tax payers. He has shown total contempt to Parliament, British Democracy, and most importantly the people of these Isles. That will not be forgotten, nor will those cheerleaders standing behind this clown of a Prime Minister. Technically this might not be described as a constitutional crisis, but it is a demonstration that our current administration is not fit for purpose, and most certainly cannot be trusted with taking this country out of the European Union. That is why people are angry, and getting angrier by the minute.

 

[HSTEd]

It is though, Boris is shutting down parliament just because parliament disagrees with his Brexit stance.
MPs are elected representatives of the people, and the prorogation denies them the chance to represent the people in stopping a no-deal Brexit.

MPs will be prorogued because they accept that they will be prorogued.
MPs could remove Boris Johnson and stop the prorogation on Monday if they chose to do so.

The Queen isn't elected, so shouldn't be able to stop parliament.

But she has not done so?
Parliament has not removed Boris from Number 10, urgo Boris gets to make these decisions.
If Parliament wants to stop this decision they have a perfectly good mechanism for doing so on Monday.

Although I do agree that the monarchy should be kept as it brings in money in tourism, but they should have no role in the running of the country

And how precisely would a republic prevent this problem?

If you really believe that the BoJoBot has the confidence of the House, you've either missed the events of the last few weeks, or are in denial.

And yet Parliament has not seen fit to withdraw that confidence?
It meets on Monday, it is entirely within it's powers to do so at that time if it choses to do so.

It will almost certainly not chose to do so.

The very reason he asked / instructed the Queen for the prorogue was because he knew the House was rallying against his intentions to move to a no deal scenario. A number of Conservative MPs have already indicated that they will back moves to prevent him doing so, the leader of the Scottish branch has resigned the party, effectively wiping out the working majority of one. He thinks he has bluffed those against no deal, but this hand is far from over.

Proroguing parliament at some point in the future does not stop Parliament from stopping him.
It just calls the bluff of Tory MPs who like to talk big about how they will stop him but will never do so because they are terrified of putting Corbyn in Number 10 because that destroys their primary argument about Labour being mad Stalinists.

 

[DerekC]

Except this is not really a constitutional crisis of the sort that the Queen can help with.
Boris has not prorogued parliament with immediate effect, and he has not done anything that significantly affects Parliament's ability to remove him in any serious manner. He has not given himself any dictatorial powers or removed human rights or anything like that.

When Parliament meets next week it is entirely free to remove Boris should it so choose, it is entirely free to reverse the prorogation, should it so choose.
However it will not choose to do so, because ultimately Boris still commands the confidence of the house.

People are blowing this up out of proportion because a bunch of Tory remainers are upset that Boris is calling their bluff.

I was trying to avoid this becoming just another Remainer versus Leaver haranguing match. What yesterday did was make it clear that the Queen has no power. It's been pretty clear for a while that the House of Lords has no real power either. So power is in balance between the Prime Minister and the House of Commons - The rest, despite all the jewels and maces and ermine and general flim-flam, is (in terms of effective government) a waste of space. Is that a good way to carry on into the future? That's all I am asking.

.

 

[Bantamzen]

Proroguing parliament at some point in the future does not stop Parliament from stopping him.
It just calls the bluff of Tory MPs who like to talk big about how they will stop him but will never do so because they are terrified of putting Corbyn in Number 10 because that destroys their primary argument about Labour being mad Stalinists.

I agree that few have any desire to install Corbyn as PM, however he has indicated that he is open to a number of options that could see a vote of no confidence in the current PM being successful. Like I said, this hand is not over yet.

 

[krus_aragon]

Parliament has not removed Boris from Number 10, urgo Boris gets to make these decisions.
If Parliament wants to stop this decision they have a perfectly good mechanism for doing so on Monday.

They actually reconvene on Tuesday, but otherwise I believe you're quite correct in your assessment.

 

[HSTEd]

I was trying to avoid this becoming just another Remainer versus Leaver haranguing match. What yesterday did was make it clear that the Queen has no power. It's been pretty clear for a while that the House of Lords has no real power either. So power is in balance between the Prime Minister and the House of Commons - The rest, despite all the jewels and maces and ermine and general flim-flam, is (in terms of effective government) a waste of space. Is that a good way to carry on into the future? That's all I am asking.

The Queen has power in truly dire circumstances.
For example if the Prime Minister ordered troops to re-enact Tiananmen Square in Horse Guards Parade, she could intervene.
Or if the Prime Minister tried to cancel elections and rule by decree.

 

[507021]

the leader of the Scottish branch has resigned the party, effectively wiping out the working majority of one.

Ruth Davidson was an MSP, not an MP.

 

[Bantamzen]

Ruth Davidson was an MSP, not an MP.

Ah yes, thanks for correcting me.

 

[edwin_m]

MPs will be prorogued because they accept that they will be prorogued.
MPs could remove Boris Johnson and stop the prorogation on Monday if they chose to do so.

If they do, they fall into his trap. As I understand it the 14-day period under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act to form an alternative government would be truncated to 2 or 3 days by the start of the progrogation. Otherwise it's an election which Boris appears to be able to push back to beyond the Brexit date.

the leader of the Scottish branch has resigned the party.

Ruth Davidson was an MSP, not an MP.

She's not resigning as an MSP or from the party, just as leader.

 

[greyman42]

Regarding the original question, how would we decide. A referendum?

 

[507021]

Ah yes, thanks for correcting me.

No problem.

If they do, they fall into his trap. As I understand it the 14-day period under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act to form an alternative government would be truncated to 2 or 3 days by the start of the progrogation. Otherwise it's an election which Boris appears to be able to push back to beyond the Brexit date.


She's not resigning as an MSP or from the party, just as leader.

Ah right, thanks for clarifying.

 

[anme]

The Queen has power in truly dire circumstances.
For example if the Prime Minister ordered troops to re-enact Tiananmen Square in Horse Guards Parade, she could intervene.

How could she do that? Orders from the prime minister to the military do not go via the queen.

 

[507021]

How could she do that? Orders from the prime minister to the military do not go via the queen.

The Queen is the commander in chief of the British Armed Forces.

 

[DavidGrain]

Prorogations usually takes place each year in April/May when it ends a session of parliament and a new sessions states with the State Opening when we have the Queen's speech which sets out the Government programme for the new session. This present session is unusual in the it has been running for over two years since the 2017 general election.

I watched Jacob Rees Mogg in his first Business Questions in his new role as Leader of the House of Commons. Several MPs asked for a new Queen's Speech so that they could hear BoJo's policies in detail. Rees Mogg replied that they could not have a Queen's Speech unless there was a prorogation first. Be careful what you ask for!

The general rule is that all bills that that have not passed all stages fail on prorogation but there is provision to carry over bills. The Government will almost certainly propose this in relation to the Government bills but all private member's bill and private bills will fail. There are several bills relating leaving the EU including consequential changes to UK law in progress through parliament.

As the title of this thread implies What if we were a republic? Then the prime minister would have gone to the President and asked for a prorogation. No change there then

 

[anme]

The Queen is the commander in chief of the British Armed Forces.

I don't think orders from the PM to the military go via the desk of the queen.

In any case, we are talking about the situation where not only has the PM ordered the military to fire on civilians, but the military have carried out those orders. By that point, is the intervention of the queen likely to make any difference?

 

[Darandio]

The Queen is the commander in chief of the British Armed Forces.

Which she now delegates elsewhere, i.e the Prime Minister.

I think at one point she had to be directly in the loop to give authorisation but this was done away with in the Blair era?

 

[Spamcan81]

If you really believe that the BoJoBot has the confidence of the House, you've either missed the events of the last few weeks, or are in denial. The very reason he asked / instructed the Queen for the prorogue was because he knew the House was rallying against his intentions to move to a no deal scenario. A number of Conservative MPs have already indicated that they will back moves to prevent him doing so, the leader of the Scottish branch has resigned the party, effectively wiping out the working majority of one. He thinks he has bluffed those against no deal, but this hand is far from over.

But what he has done is show that there is an element of his party, and those wishing to leave that they will stop at nothing to get what they want, at any price. Of course I say at any price because they won't actually pay it, that honour will be bestowed on us ordinary tax payers. He has shown total contempt to Parliament, British Democracy, and most importantly the people of these Isles. That will not be forgotten, nor will those cheerleaders standing behind this clown of a Prime Minister. Technically this might not be described as a constitutional crisis, but it is a demonstration that our current administration is not fit for purpose, and most certainly cannot be trusted with taking this country out of the European Union. That is why people are angry, and getting angrier by the minute.

She is a member of the Scottish Parliament, not the Westminster one so her resignation does not affect Boris's majority in the House of Commons.

 

[507021]

Which she now delegates elsewhere, i.e the Prime Minister.

I think at one point she had to be directly in the loop to give authorisation but this was done away with in the Blair era?

You are correct, however I believe the Queen is still able to command the military if she wishes to.

 

[yorksrob]

It just calls the bluff of Tory MPs who like to talk big about how they will stop him but will never do so because they are terrified of putting Corbyn in Number 10 because that destroys their primary argument about Labour being mad Stalinists.

Hit the nail on the head there, I think.

 

[HSTEd]

If they do, they fall into his trap. As I understand it the 14-day period under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act to form an alternative government would be truncated to 2 or 3 days by the start of the progrogation. Otherwise it's an election which Boris appears to be able to push back to beyond the Brexit date.

The FTPA cannot withstand the will of Parliament.
After all Parliament SUpremacy means that no Parliament may bind it's successors.

Parliament can have an election whenever it choses, or it could declare Boris guilty of treason if it wants. (By the simple mechanism of repealing or amending the FTPA)
And MPs can still talk to each other even if they are not in the Commons Chamber.

Giving confidence in a new government takes the ten minutes for the division........

How could she do that? Orders from the prime minister to the military do not go via the queen.

As Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the Crown, she could order the military to desist and to ignore orders from the Prime Minister, and to return to their barracks.

 

[DerekC]

The Queen has power in truly dire circumstances.
For example if the Prime Minister ordered troops to re-enact Tiananmen Square in Horse Guards Parade, she could intervene.
Or if the Prime Minister tried to cancel elections and rule by decree.

In the first scenario the Prime Minister would presumably advise the Queen not to intervene, claiming that the security of the state was under threat. On what basis could she ignore his/her advice?

In the second Parliament would meet and vote "no confidence" and the Prime Minister would be asked to resign. Of course she/he could try to hang onto power and it would then depend on who controls the Police and the military - and we might find ourselves back in Scenario 1.

The problem is that nothing is written down - all the Queen has to go on is precedent - and the precedent is very strongly in favour of taking the PM's advice. The point is that an unwritten constitution, a monarch as Head of State with theoretical but no actual power and an unelected upper chamber just don't look like an effective set of checks on governmental power. I know that Brexiteers will be happy with the current situation - but next time the boot may be on the other foot!

 

[Spamcan81]

The Queen is the commander in chief of the British Armed Forces.

Indeed and the Armed Forces swear an oath of allegiance to the Crown, not the Government of the day.

 

[HSTEd]

In the first scenario the Prime Minister would presumably advise the Queen not to intervene, claiming that the security of the state was under threat. On what basis could she ignore his/her advice?

In Australia in 1975 it is shown that the Crown could summarily dismiss the prime minister prior to such advice being given, or could chose to ignore the advice as seen in the case of the Governor General of Grenada.
Paul Scoon authorised the invasion of Grenada using the reserve powers of the crown, despite the Prime Minister at the time obviously not agreeing with the action.

 

[AlterEgo]

You are correct, however I believe the Queen is still able to command the military if she wishes to.

The Queen will only command the military if the military wishes to; that's the nub of the issue.

 

[underbank]

MPs are elected representatives of the people

If the MPs had complied with the referendum result, we wouldn't be in this position. You can't have it both ways. Parliament has proved itself incapable of delivering what the majority want, so desperate measures to knock some sense into them is needed.

 

[hexagon789]

If the MPs had complied with the referendum result, we wouldn't be in this position. You can't have it both ways. Parliament has proved itself incapable of delivering what the majority want, so desperate measures to knock some sense into them is needed.

Exactly, you can't have it both ways. Parliament is meant to represent the people and implement the will of the people, they've got about one chance remaining on that score.