Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think same day break of journey needs to remain permitted.
I agree these are serious concerns.I'll offer a recent experience in Spain, to alert people to the dangers of removing "Break of Journey". Having travelled in France on local trains, stopping off here and there (on the same day), I then purchased a ticket from Port Bou to Barcelona, thinking that the same would apply in Spain. The idea was to stop for lunch and continue onward.
The station chosen for the lunch break had unmanned barriers. My attempt to pass through with a ticket to Barcelona (further along the line) was rejected. I managed to attract the attention of the clerk in the ticket office, who agreed to let me through the barriers but telling me it was not permitted. He told me that he was going off duty but he would inform the next employee to let me back in. When I returned after lunch, once again my ticket did not open the barrier. The new clerk behind the window in the ticket office told me that I could not enter but must buy a new ticket from there to Barcelona. Luckily the distance and cost from there to Barcelona was small. She told me that she was not allowed to let me through the barrier with my Barcelona ticket.
If Break of Journey rights are removed in the UK that will likely bring to an end starting or ending short, having a break for lunch etc. and catching a later train, walking between stations and so on. A single ticket of any kind will simply be point to point. They'll call it "simplification of the rules". The time validity can be restricted also, so that once a ticket is purchased the journey must be completed for example within two hours.
Be careful what you wish for.
Incorrect, enforcement is carried out in active zones whatever the day of week or time of year. I see Penalty Notices all the time in Horsham where people gamble with that assumption or simply don't read or can't comprehend the restriction on the Zone plates....chances are nobody would be checking it in August bank holiday week...
- 10% more than an anytime single
That would provide the flexibility that people would like, yes at a cost but the current open returns generally have an extra cost in using them.
Moving to singles shouldn't affect starting or stopping short, short non-overnight breaks or having a reasonable choice of routes. I reckon I'll need to break at York for an hour on Edinburgh-London with the new seats. Feels slightly different from coming back via a week-long tour of Oxford, Birmingham Liverpool and Glasgow.I can understand the rationale of paying a surcharge for full BoJ flexibility, but the most common use I have of the BoJ rules is starting or ending short, which I expect is quite a common use. I think the railway would have some pretty dissatisfied customers if the right even to start or end short were removed from walk-up tickets without paying a further surcharge.
It is already the case that some tickets do not allow BOJ (which I deplore) however there is no evidence that I am aware of that BOJ itself is under threat by this trial, just the extent of it that is under threat, which is a different thing really.No BoJ and how long before “train held up by unwell passenger who couldn’t afford to risk getting off early”
I'll offer a recent experience in Spain, to alert people to the dangers of removing "Break of Journey"....
Be careful what you wish for.
Yes, and ending Break of Journey validity would affect local pubs and micropubs near or actually on stations!I'll offer a recent experience in Spain, to alert people to the dangers of removing "Break of Journey". Having travelled in France on local trains, stopping off here and there (on the same day), I then purchased a ticket from Port Bou to Barcelona, thinking that the same would apply in Spain. The idea was to stop for lunch and continue onward.
The station chosen for the lunch break had unmanned barriers. My attempt to pass through with a ticket to Barcelona (further along the line) was rejected. I managed to attract the attention of the clerk in the ticket office, who agreed to let me through the barriers but telling me it was not permitted. He told me that he was going off duty but he would inform the next employee to let me back in. When I returned after lunch, once again my ticket did not open the barrier. The new clerk behind the window in the ticket office told me that I could not enter but must buy a new ticket from there to Barcelona. Luckily the distance and cost from there to Barcelona was small. She told me that she was not allowed to let me through the barrier with my Barcelona ticket.
If Break of Journey rights are removed in the UK that will likely bring to an end starting or ending short, having a break for lunch etc. and catching a later train, walking between stations and so on. A single ticket of any kind will simply be point to point. They'll call it "simplification of the rules". The time validity can be restricted also, so that once a ticket is purchased the journey must be completed for example within two hours.
Be careful what you wish for.
But this BoJ hasn’t been suggested by anyone.Yes, and ending Break of Journey validity would affect local pubs and micropubs near or actually on stations!
Imagine not being able to break your journey at York!
there is no evidence that I am aware of that BOJ itself is under threat by this trial, just the extent of it that is under threat, which is a different thing really.
But this BoJ hasn’t been suggested by anyone.
I think that's a ridiculous claim. For most flights booked as through tickets leaving the airport is just not an option unless at the outset you have only been booked to the connecting point and are prepared to go through the check in process a second time.Not even airlines stop you leaving the airport between connections if there's time!
I don't think it'll be an issue here but there are TOCs who bar BoJ on singles and this will need addressing particularly now there is evidence of staff (at Clapham Jn) not letting people go to the shops between trains, which is mind numbingly idiotic.
I think that's a ridiculous claim. For most flights booked as through tickets leaving the airport is just not an option unless at the outset you have only been booked to the connecting point and are prepared to go through the check in process a second time.
When you say there is evidence of this at Clapham Jn, do you just mean this has happened to you? If so, how many times?
Clapham Junction staff are notorious for this sort of thing and problems have been reported there; here are a few examples:When you say there is evidence of this at Clapham Jn, do you just mean this has happened to you? If so, how many times?
Last week I was travelling on the return portion of a Chester to Fleet Off Peak Return and wished to break my journey at Clapham Junction, resuming a couple of days later (still well before the expiry date on the ticket). I had previously checked the Fares & Ticketing Guide to make sure this was allowed.
Knowing that my ticket wouldn't activate the barriers I approached the SWT gateline assistant to be let through. The assistant at first claimed BOJ wasn't allowed at all on the ticket then conceded that it was but had to be resumed on the same day. ...
... most barrier staff at Clapham [Junction] won't allow people to pass the barrier
While I do share concerns about any potential restrictions to our right to a break of journey, I can only reiterate that there does not appear to be any issue specifically related to this trial, at least not when it comes to breaking on the same day and/or starting/finishing 'short'. I suggest another thread be created to discuss break of journey issues further if anyone has any further concerns in this area.So its not just myself who has been denied access to use station facilities at Clapham Junction the other side of the gateline when I've been changing trains at Clapham Junction.....
I think that's a ridiculous claim. For most flights booked as through tickets leaving the airport is just not an option unless at the outset you have only been booked to the connecting point and are prepared to go through the check in process a second time.
I wouldn't bother travelling long-distance in Great Britain, then...I just want to roll up to a station and pay a fare that is competive with driving without having to commit to a specific train weeks in advance.
On routes wbere there's a comprehensive flight schedule, LNER do not 'effectively compete' with the airlines, though. They're merely nibbling a little bit off their edges.Further, if it’s indicative of how senior folks at LNER think that airline systems work, it raises basic concerns about how the local rail industry from within its own ranks can effectively compete with global aviation.
In the past, the fact you're permitted to stop off on your through booking in Ireland or Iceland has actually been sold as a specific benefit of the tickets in airline marketing.False. You get a separate boarding card for the second flight and can, provided you are entitled to enter the country, pop out and back in without collecting bags. Schiphol, and other airports, actually run organised tours for such people. I have done it myself on a KLM through booking.
They don't like you stopping short to save money, but that's not the BoJ use case I'm talking about. As long as you actually take the second flight they don't mind.
I’m selectively quoting for clarity, but that’s completely and utterly incorrect.
Further, if it’s indicative of how senior folks at LNER think that airline systems work, it raises basic concerns about how the local rail industry from within its own ranks can effectively compete with global aviation.
For most journeys you will struggle to get anything more than a five or six hour layover on a normal ticket. Even if you do take advantage of that you will potentially take 20 minutes to get off the plane and onto the street, or an hour or more if there's customs and immigration. There's then half an hour into the city and half an hour back, followed by clearing security and getting to your gate ahead of the flight. You might just fit in lunch, and it's probably not worth the hassle.I’m selectively quoting for clarity, but that’s completely and utterly incorrect.
Further, if it’s indicative of how senior folks at LNER think that airline systems work, it raises basic concerns about how the local rail industry from within its own ranks can effectively compete with global aviation.
I don't think WMT or VT will drop their anytime tickets, meaning there will still be some tickets which allow unrestricted break of journey.If this was done, there are a number of TOCs (e.g. LNR and VTWC) where BoJ would not be permitted at all on a vast swathe of flows.
I don't think WMT or VT will drop their anytime tickets, meaning there will still be some tickets which allow unrestricted break of journey.
I the importance of this is not to be understimated. I recently travelled from Manchester to Inverness by rail and arranged a break at Newcastle to use the Greggs across the road and stock up from a nearby supermarket for my onward journey.Which isn't really the point - one should not, on any ticket, have to pay extra to pop out of the station between trains to grab some food if the station's offerings are not acceptable.
For most journeys you will struggle to get anything more than a five or six hour layover on a normal ticket. Even if you do take advantage of that you will potentially take 20 minutes to get off the plane and onto the street, or an hour or more if there's customs and immigration. There's then half an hour into the city and half an hour back, followed by clearing security and getting to your gate ahead of the flight. You might just fit in lunch, and it's probably not worth the hassle.
Certainly you can book more complex multi-city itineraries with overnight stays for minimal extra cost, but that's essentially a separate product with advance booking. There's nothing wrong with rail offering tickets like that. Making it part of the walk-up offering just makes the walk-up tickets more complex for customers to understand, and more difficult for operators to price and vend, and ultimately leads to normal passengers paying more for their trips.
I'm not talking about overnight BoJ, which is much more likely to be planned in advance and so can be achieved by splitting.
Clapham Junction staff are notorious for this sort of thing and problems have been reported there; here are a few examples:
[three examples snipped]
I do remember a ticket clerk at Clapham Jn being daft and refusing to sell me and a friend return tickets from 'London Terminals' to a destination in the south west, and instead insisting that the origin had to be Clapham Junction - kinda annoying when your plan is to return to Waterloo.