Transport Investigations prosecuting me

[WesternLancer]

But would it not work that way with any TOC as well given this is standard practice throughout whether over or under a tenner? As you point out it`s pretty daft on a ticket that is under a tenner and a pretty stupid idea to enable a click option on the eticket at the same time. One of many reasons most members here never use the Trainliars.

Yes, that's the problem - I don't use Trainline so no idea how it works in such situations, but obv they have significant market share and lots of people do use them (before coming to this site for advice).

 

[tiptoptaff]

I can't answer for what the OP had on their screen at the time, but the Trainline's guidance for getting a refund on the app suggests you actively have to seek it out, by going through a series of menus

 

[_toommm_]

I still don't understand how these Trainline 'refunds' could work / ever be viable to be offered on fairly modest fee (given the £10 admin fee)
do Trainline not charge the admin fee or the fee in full?

I guess that is a question for someone more familiar with the Trainline - I just can't see how it makes any sense to permit refunds of tickets so easily, because as I say, why wouldn't anyone simply apply for one as their journey came to an end / stepped off the train.

Am I missing something here?

Is this linked to the e-ticket problems issues others have raised on the Forum before (sorry can't find thread) relating to validating / 'activating' an e-ticket?

ie the sort of Refund details given on page 21 here.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf

For lower value tickets, TTL don't charge the full £10 admin fee, but a proportion of the ticket cost (I'm unsure as to the algorithm to work out the admin fee vs. cost). Similarly, the same process happens for Advance mobile tickets booked through TTL too.

 

[WesternLancer]

For lower value tickets, TTL don't charge the full £10 admin fee, but a proportion of the ticket cost (I'm unsure as to the algorithm to work out the admin fee vs. cost). Similarly, the same process happens for Advance mobile tickets booked through TTL too.

Thanks!

 

[CentralTrainer]

Was speaking to a friend at work today who uses the TL app quite a bit to book tickets on the day.

They said they did a test on the app as they had paid for a paper ticket a few days before taking a trip - but then thought they misplaced it.

So they purchased in the TL app on the day and scanned the ticket to go through the barriers. During the journey they happened to find the paper ticket in an inside pocket in their jacket. So they tried to do what the OP had done here and requested a refund (which was about 5 minutes after going through the barriers but after they had shown the TL ticket to the Guard).

They still had the details on the app which they showed me. It did state that (for an £8.80 fare) that the admin charge would be £3.50-odd. But the refund was unsuccessful.

They also said that to do this they had to go through at least 2 clicks to request and confirm the action.

This suggested to both of us that a barrier scanned ticket would then flag up not to allow and refuse a refund - meaning that maybe the OP didn’t actually scan any ticket at the barrier if they got a refund confirmed back to them?

If so - that’d give the TOC more weightier evidence against...

 

[tiptoptaff]

Was speaking to a friend at work today who uses the TL app quite a bit to book tickets on the day.

They said they did a test on the app as they had paid for a paper ticket a few days before taking a trip - but then thought they misplaced it.

So they purchased in the TL app on the day and scanned the ticket to go through the barriers. During the journey they happened to find the paper ticket in an inside pocket in their jacket. So they tried to do what the OP had done here and requested a refund (which was about 5 minutes after going through the barriers but after they had shown the TL ticket to the Guard).

They still had the details on the app which they showed me. It did state that (for an £8.80 fare) that the admin charge would be £3.50-odd. But the refund was unsuccessful.

They also said that to do this they had to go through at least 2 clicks to request and confirm the action.

This suggested to both of us that a barrier scanned ticket would then flag up not to allow and refuse a refund - meaning that maybe the OP didn’t actually scan any ticket at the barrier if they got a refund confirmed back to them?

If so - that’d give the TOC more weightier evidence against...

I had considered a test purchase, so thanks to your friend for misplacing their ticket and doing this for us!

 

[hazard321]

Was speaking to a friend at work today who uses the TL app quite a bit to book tickets on the day.

They said they did a test on the app as they had paid for a paper ticket a few days before taking a trip - but then thought they misplaced it.

So they purchased in the TL app on the day and scanned the ticket to go through the barriers. During the journey they happened to find the paper ticket in an inside pocket in their jacket. So they tried to do what the OP had done here and requested a refund (which was about 5 minutes after going through the barriers but after they had shown the TL ticket to the Guard).

They still had the details on the app which they showed me. It did state that (for an £8.80 fare) that the admin charge would be £3.50-odd. But the refund was unsuccessful.

They also said that to do this they had to go through at least 2 clicks to request and confirm the action.

This suggested to both of us that a barrier scanned ticket would then flag up not to allow and refuse a refund - meaning that maybe the OP didn’t actually scan any ticket at the barrier if they got a refund confirmed back to them?

If so - that’d give the TOC more weightier evidence against...

I definitely scanned the ticket through the barrier and I think your friend is correct, as when I checked to see if the ticket had been refunded a couple of hours later it was unsuccessful.

I still don't know what I was thinking to check if a refund would work or not

 

[WesternLancer]

I defiantly scanned the ticker through the barrier and i think your friend is correct as when i checked to see if the ticket refunded couple of hours later it was unsuccessful. I still dont know what i was thinking to check if a refund would work or not

well, it is easy to do daft things like that - esp if process does not prevent it. Key thing now is to help you make a case that limits the damage.

I wonder if the system, including the barrier scan in, is simply not 'fail safe' eg does the tech work every time/

Just a further thought - can you recall if for certain the barrier opened in response to your scan - eg as opposed to a co-incidental tailgate of the person ahead of you, or if staff intervened to open the barrier for any reason?

 

[hazard321]

well, it is easy to do daft things like that - esp if process does not prevent it. Key thing now is to help you make a case that limits the damage.

I wonder if the system, including the barrier scan in, is simply not 'fail safe' eg does the tech work every time/

Just a further thought - can you recall if for certain the barrier opened in response to your scan - eg as opposed to a co-incidental tailgate of the person ahead of you, or if staff intervened to open the barrier for any reason?

Im certain i scanned it. There was no one in front of me

 

[WesternLancer]

Im certain i scanned it. There was no one in front of me

Thanks. So I guess we also have the not 'fail safe' system to consider.
Another reason to avoid Trainline if you can I guess.

 

[talltim]

I defiantly scanned the ticker through the barrier and i think your friend is correct as when i checked to see if the ticket refunded couple of hours later it was unsuccessful. I still dont know what i was thinking to check if a refund would work or not

Are you talking about the ticket that caused you the trouble? If it was not refunded then surely it was still valid?

 

[WesternLancer]

Are you talking about the ticket that caused you the trouble? If it was not refunded then surely it was still valid?

I think the OP states it was refunded, minus an Admin charge. Or enough through the process of the refund as to be no longer a valid ticket at the moment the inspector checked it, very soon after.

 

[maniacmartin]

Are you talking about the ticket that caused you the trouble? If it was not refunded then surely it was still valid?

This is exactly what I thought when I read the post. I would be basing my appeal on this fact, with a screenshot/printout etc of the page that said the refund failed.

 

[hazard321]

This is exactly what I thought when I read the post. I would be basing my appeal on this fact, with a screenshot/printout etc of the page that said the refund failed.

I have not mentioned this as i dont think they care if the refund was successful or not. All they care is the fact i attempted to refund the ticket when i shouldnt have

 

[Haywain]

This is exactly what I thought when I read the post. I would be basing my appeal on this fact, with a screenshot/printout etc of the page that said the refund failed.

I disagree. The ticket is cancelled as part of the process of applying for a refund, so is not valid for travel. The fact that the refund value is nil due to an admin fee is irrelevant in my view.

 

[cuccir]

You seem to have contradicted yourself here. You have said:

To my surprise it gave me a partial refund

when I checked to see if the ticket had been refunded a couple of hours later it was unsuccessful.

Which was it?

In principle, if your ticket was not refunded then surely it was still valid. I can see how it is possible that if in the period after clicking refund the app says something like "refund pending" then arguably it would be invalid at that moment because you couldn't show it to the inspector, and the act of applying to refund could still potentially be shown in court as evidence of intent to avoid a fare.

So I can certainly see why when writing to TIL it may be worth leaving it unmentioned, particularly as it seems to complicate matters to raise it at the last minute. It may become relevant still if this goes to court, depending on what they do try and charge you with.

 

[some bloke]

I would mention it. Your first letter refers to an outstanding fare, which can be taken to mean you have in fact profited by taking money that doesn't belong to you. As the refund didn't go through, we might think there was no chargeable "admin", so that no company lost out to any significant extent.

Even if the screen said "you are now cancelling the ticket prior to applying for a refund", the fact that there was no refund may be taken as evidence that profiting in that way isn't an easy thing to achieve, and lessen any concern that you may have done it before.

Your situation is much more delicate than if you'd followed a common practice of boarding without a ticket. They may think "this sounds a bit odd but we'll let him settle" or "it sounds like he, at least at some point, thought he'd get away with it".

You need to be careful what you write, as it may be brought up in court.

If you prefer not to consult a solicitor now, then I'd advise addressing the questions above about your intent at different times, and posting a draft on here so people can comment.

 

[hazard321]

I have already sent the letter yesterday. I didnt include this but i will be sure to mention this if it does go further. I already have stated in the letter i can provide screenshots of past tickets on the app to prove i have never done this before. I will update once i get a reply.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have already sent the letter yesterday. I didnt include this but i will be sure to mention this if it does go further. I already have stated in the letter i can provide screenshots of past tickets on the app to prove i have never done this before. I will update once i get a reply.

Good luck with the next stage of this in any case.

 

[hazard321]

Good luck with the next stage of this in any case.

Bad news. It seems they just ignored what i sent in my letter similar to other peoples experiences. I have seen on other posts that its possible to still agree out of court settlement with cross country directly by calling them. Should i give this a go or just wait for the next letter and see what happens

 

[najaB]

Bad news. It seems they just ignored what i sent in my letter similar to other peoples experiences. I have seen on other posts that its possible to still agree out of court settlement with cross country directly by calling them. Should i give this a go or just wait for the next letter and see what happens?

The case is likely to be handed back to the TOC's prosecution team so it will be them who you hear from next. The chances are that you'll be able to arrange a settlement with them.

Though you still have the problem of explaining this "accidental" refund.

 

[some bloke]

I have seen on other posts that its possible to still agree out of court settlement with cross country directly by calling them. Should i give this a go...

In a straightforward case, where there's a simple misunderstanding that needs clearing up, a call might be appropriate. But there's a risk of saying the "wrong" thing, and having a written record of communications may be preferable anyway.

Your case isn't straightforward - your position on intent at different times isn't clear yet. There's nothing to stop you writing to the company, but you might think in view of the fact that you want to work in finance, that it's worth getting in touch with a solicitor now.

 

[Fare-Cop]

The case is likely to be handed back to the TOC's prosecution team so it will be them who you hear from next. The chances are that you'll be able to arrange a settlement with them.

It is almost certain that once a letter confirming this response is received, the TOC have agreed with TIL and the TOC have therefore authorised the prosecution

 

[najaB]

It is almost certain that once a letter confirming this response is received, the TOC have agreed with TIL and the TOC have therefore authorised the prosecution

You would think so but, based on the experience of previous posters, it doesn't seem that this is always the case.

More than once we've seen TOCs agree to settle after TIL have refused to.

It might but be the case universally, but I don't think that TIL actually makes the application for a summons where XC are concerned.

 

[hazard321]

Good news received a letter yesterday saying they will settle out of court even after TIL wanted to continue the case after the last letter. The sum came to £269, which is a lot, but much better than having a criminal record and going through the hassle of going court. i have certainly learned from this experience and will never do anything like that again

 

[Haywain]

Good news. Thanks for letting us know.

 

[najaB]

Good news received a letter yesterday saying they will settle out of court even after TIL wanted to continue the case after the last letter.

Thanks for letting us know.

The sum came to £269, which is a lot...

Out of curiosity, did they say how that figure was arrived at?

 

[WesternLancer]

It still seems crazy to me that the OP can scan their ticket in at a barrier line and then the provider can allow them to process a refund request in a way that little more than 'idle curiosity' can permit - if a bit foolish but we've all been a bit foolish some time or other.