South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Dai Corner]

No one would disagree with you on that but with Network Rail's ownership of much of the infrastructure, that's not going to happen any time soon.

The Welsh Government is trying to get as much of the job done as it can which, in my view, is far better than just sitting on its hands.

If only the two Governments could work together and WG had specified bimodes instead of diesels for South Wales, electrification to Swansea via the main line might have been justified. The Vale of Glamorgan, Penarth, Barry Island, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale could have followed as and when funds permitted.

 

[Envoy]

If only the two Governments could work together and WG had specified bimodes instead of diesels for South Wales, electrification to Swansea via the main line might have been justified. The Vale of Glamorgan, Penarth, Barry Island, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale could have followed as and when funds permitted.

It would be a great shame if the new CAF trains for the Manchester to west Wales route get built as diesel power only and then a future government decides to electrify Cardiff to Swansea - meaning of course, that they cannot make use of the overhead lines between Swansea & Newport and Crewe & Manchester.

We could also have seen an all electric stopping service running between Swansea & Bristol Temple Meads/Bath. The Cheltenham to Maesteg trains could also have been bi-mode. Throw in the Hitachi Class 800’s on the London run and you surely have a case to electrify Cardiff to Swansea? If the Ebbw Vale line were to be electrified along with the Maesteg branch from Bridgend, then an all electric service could have been provided.

 

[hwl]

It would be a great shame if the new CAF trains for the Manchester to west Wales route get built as diesel power only and then a future government decides to electrify Cardiff to Swansea - meaning of course, that they cannot make use of the overhead lines between Swansea & Newport and Crewe & Manchester.

We could also have seen an all electric stopping service running between Swansea & Bristol Temple Meads/Bath. The Cheltenham to Maesteg trains could also have been bi-mode. Throw in the Hitachi Class 800’s on the London run and you surely have a case to electrify Cardiff to Swansea?

Plenty of sensible cascade options if that happens e.g. use them to replace 230s /170s or deal with growth on other routes that will inevitably happen with better stock

 

[Mordac]

Maybe slightly off-topic, but not really worth creating a new thread for this. Can someone confirm which lines are meant to transfer to Welsh Government ownership? I've always seen it referred to as the "Core Valley Lines," but I've never seen a definition of what this exactly means.

 

[krus_aragon]

Maybe slightly off-topic, but not really worth creating a new thread for this. Can someone confirm which lines are meant to transfer to Welsh Government ownership? I've always seen it referred to as the "Core Valley Lines," but I've never seen a definition of what this exactly means.

Everything North of Queen St, Radyr to Ninian Park, and Queen St to the Bay, as I understand it. It specifically excludes the route via Grangetown to Penarth/Barry/Bridgend, as it forms a diversionary route for the NR mainline.

 

[Cardiff123]

Everything North of Queen St, Radyr to Ninian Park, and Queen St to the Bay, as I understand it. It specifically excludes the route via Grangetown to Penarth/Barry/Bridgend, as it forms a diversionary route for the NR mainline.

Regardless of whether the Vale of Glamorgan route via Barry provides an NR diversionary route, that shouldn't be a reason not to transfer the line to TfW. As long as TfW agreed to maintain the line to Network Rail heavy rail standards, why can't it be transferred to TfW from Grangetown to Bridgend? TfW already plan to double a section of the Penarth line, re-build the old platform at Dingle Rd, and build a new platform at Penarth. The VoG line needs to be electrified eventually, and I doubt Westminster will ever instruct NR to do it. If Keolis Amey however can do it once the Core Valley lines are done, then let them.

 

[Dr Day]

why can't it be transferred to TfW from Grangetown to Bridgend?

Possibly more to do with the control and operation of the infrastructure (ie signalling) than maintenance and construction of new bits? It may also be messy contractually on the track access front.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I suspect ownership of other lines may well be transferred at some point in the future. Regional / local control seems to be the direction of travel for the industry at the moment.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Regardless of whether the Vale of Glamorgan route via Barry provides an NR diversionary route, that shouldn't be a reason not to transfer the line to TfW. As long as TfW agreed to maintain the line to Network Rail heavy rail standards, why can't it be transferred to TfW from Grangetown to Bridgend? TfW already plan to double a section of the Penarth line, re-build the old platform at Dingle Rd, and build a new platform at Penarth. The VoG line needs to be electrified eventually, and I doubt Westminster will ever instruct NR to do it. If Keolis Amey however can do it once the Core Valley lines are done, then let them.

I wasn't aware that redoubling to Penarth was planned. Why stop there though? It would be nice to extend onward to Lower Penarth, something that was being considered in the latter days of B.R. This area is prime commuter country.

 

[Cardiff123]

I wasn't aware that redoubling to Penarth was planned. Why stop there though? It would be nice to extend onward to Lower Penarth, something that was being considered in the latter days of B.R. This area is prime commuter country.

It's pencilled in as part of 'future extensions' but as yet is uncosted and uncommitted. The problem is that beyond Penarth station any future heavy rail extensions are virtually impossible without buying up large amounts of land and commercial and residential properties that have been built on or very close to the old alignment around Penarth station.
Beyond there, much of the old alignment is intact in the form of a 'railway walk' but halfway along the old alignment there are a dozen houses that are built on it, which would be a challenge even for a light rail alignment. If those houses could be bought up and removed as an obstacle, in theory the line could be extended as a tram-train route from Penarth to Sully. Linking the line back up with Cadoxton is now impossible.

 

[krus_aragon]

It's pencilled in as part of 'future extensions' but as yet is uncosted and uncommitted. The problem is that beyond Penarth station any future heavy rail extensions are virtually impossible without buying up large amounts of land and commercial and residential properties that have been built on or very close to the old alignment around Penarth station.
Beyond there, much of the old alignment is intact in the form of a 'railway walk' but halfway along the old alignment there are a dozen houses that are built on it, which would be a challenge even for a light rail alignment. If those houses could be bought up and removed as an obstacle, in theory the line could be extended as a tram-train route from Penarth to Sully. Linking the line back up with Cadoxton is now impossible.

I'm not sure whether it'd be worth trying to plough past the houses on Birch Lane. Stopping short of there (north of Forrest road) would give you a station that covers Lower Penarth quite well; buying up all those properties would just enable you to serve the village of Sully, which is quite near to Cadoxton station already. (Admittedly, traffic at the roundabout at the bottom of the Docks Link Road is very congested.)

I'd say aim for Lower Penarth and just get that done.

 

[Cardiff123]

I'm not sure whether it'd be worth trying to plough past the houses on Birch Lane. Stopping short of there (north of Forrest road) would give you a station that covers Lower Penarth quite well; buying up all those properties would just enable you to serve the village of Sully, which is quite near to Cadoxton station already. (Admittedly, traffic at the roundabout at the bottom of the Docks Link Road is very congested.)

I'd say aim for Lower Penarth and just get that done.

I understand what you're saying, but there are lots of housing developments planned for Sully and if the rail line is not extended in to Sully to serve those, the increased traffic along Lavernock road that will then all funnel through Penarth and Cogan into Cardiff will get completely unmanageable.
Traffic can tail back from Cogan, up Windsor Rd and almost up to Penarth town centre already at peak times.

 

[krus_aragon]

I understand what you're saying, but there are lots of housing developments planned for Sully and if the rail line is not extended in to Sully to serve those, the increased traffic along Lavernock road that will then all funnel through Penarth and Cogan into Cardiff will get completely unmanageable.
Traffic can tail back from Cogan, up Windsor Rd and almost up to Penarth town centre already at peak times.

Ah, well if they're going to build more houses there... :roll:

(I expect the number of frustrated commuters driving along the country lanes via Cog and Sully Road has continued to increase in recent years: not a good mix with the horse riding centres down that way.)

 

[S-Bahn]

It's a shame the line was lifted between Penarth and Sully. Should have just been single tracked/passing loops with Sully the terminus. There would certainly be grounds today to open 2/3 stations along that section.

 

[S-Bahn]

On another subject - why not just use cheaper third rail electrification for the entire existing valley lines? It's effectively a closed network and there aren't any fast sections on it.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

On another subject - why not just use cheaper third rail electrification for the entire existing valley lines? It's effectively a closed network and there aren't any fast sections on it.

Because it's outdated and inefficient technology and a lot of the existing third rail network is on the way out anyway.

The ORR has ruled out any expansion of third rail on safety grounds and Network Rail has said that in the long term the whole southern network will need to be converted to overhead wires.

I have no idea what the intention is with Merseyrail which is a network quite similar to the propsed Metro and which currently uses third rail.

 

[edwin_m]

There is no through running with the top contact third rail so in principle it could have had a bottom contact third rail like Docklands, which is safer and probably OK with the ORR. However the rail would have had to be outside the gauge of passing freight trains so the pickups would have had to stick out quite a long way from the sides of the trains, and probably would have had to be retractable on the side not in use or need major rebuilds to many platforms so the pickup could pass underneath. The tram-trains would have needed retractable and isolatable pickups regardless, because of the hazards of people being gouged or getting electric shock on the street sections.

750V would probably have needed many feeds from the local power network and/or higher voltage trackside cables to supply multiple substations, whereas a single 25kV feeder could power the whole Valleys (they may even be buying in the power from existing NR feeders).

 

[Gwenllian2001]

It's a shame the line was lifted between Penarth and Sully. Should have just been single tracked/passing loops with Sully the terminus. There would certainly be grounds today to open 2/3 stations along that section.

I agree. The line was deliberately made almost useless by splitting the service into two separate services with two sets of buffer stops in the platform at Penarth making it impossible for trains to run through towards Barry or Cardiff. A limited service, which didn't connect with anything, then ran between Cadoxton and Penarth. A stupid planned closure of a through route. There could be a way across the fields to re-connect with Barry line. To leave such prime commuter territory off the rail network was sheer stupidity,

 

[Dai Corner]

I agree. The line was deliberately made almost useless by splitting the service into two separate services with two sets of buffer stops in the platform at Penarth making it impossible for trains to run through towards Barry or Cardiff. A limited service, which didn't connect with anything, then ran between Cadoxton and Penarth. A stupid planned closure of a through route. There could be a way across the fields to re-connect with Barry line. To leave such prime commuter territory off the rail network was sheer stupidity,

Well, I never knew about there were once two sets of buffer stops in the platform at Penarth until tonight! The only examples I was aware of were Kirkby and Ormskirk on the edge of the Merseyrail electrified network which are there for basically political reasons.

I agree it was a daft decision.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I seem to recall the subject of extending into Penarth South was raised about 20 years ago, and there were vehement objections from locals.

 

[Cardiff123]

I seem to recall the subject of extending into Penarth South was raised about 20 years ago, and there were vehement objections from locals.

Well there would be but in this case the wider transport picture needs to be given priority over the objections of NIMBYs. The traffic congestion through Penarth and Cogan is already at saturation point.

 

[Envoy]

The houses blocking the old rail route from Penarth through to Sully are at the centre of they map:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4230864,-3.1747432,709m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

How stupid to have allowed houses to be built on an old rail route. If nothing else, it could be a cycle/walking route - as it much of this former railway. Anyway. regarding the commuters from the Sully area; surely, they would benefit from a large P&R and new station on the direct Barry to Cardiff line where the Barry Docks link road (A4231) comes to the junction the A4055? I also understand that the residents of Dinas Powys would like to see a new dual carriageway by-pass to take Cardiff to Barry traffic.

 

[Dai Corner]

The houses blocking the old rail route from Penarth through to Sully are at the centre of they map:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4230864,-3.1747432,709m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

How stupid to have allowed houses to be built on an old rail route. If nothing else, it could be a cycle/walking route - as it much of this former railway. Anyway. regarding the commuters from the Sully area; surely, they would benefit from a large P&R and new station on the direct Barry to Cardiff line where the Barry Docks link road (A4231) comes to the junction the A4055? I also understand that the residents of Dinas Powys would like to see a new dual carriageway by-pass to take Cardiff to Barry traffic.

Looks ideal for tram-train operation, on-street along Rowan Close and Birch Lane.

 

[Envoy]

Looks ideal for tram-train operation, on-street along Rowan Close and Birch Lane.

But the Tram-trains are not planned for the Penarth line - only the Stadler Flirts.

 

[Meerkat]

Is a lower Penarth extension really worth the bother? Even the southernmost housing is barely over a mile from the current station. Better to use the money on cycle facilities at the current station and upgrading the cycle path on the old railway to full lighting and cctv.

 

[krus_aragon]

Well there would be but in this case the wider transport picture needs to be given priority over the objections of NIMBYs. The traffic congestion through Penarth and Cogan is already at saturation point.

It felt at saturation point ten years ago, I dread to think what it's like now.

(My strategy at the time, starting from a house on Sully Road, was to drive along Sully Road to the end of Redlands Road, and then turn left to head away from Cardiff toward Eastbrook station, against the flow of commuters. That way, I only hit commuter traffic for the short stretch along Redlands Road. Either that or I'd walk/bike the bridlepath connecting Sully Road to Murch Road, then head to Eastbrook through the housing estates. Or just bike all the way in to Cardiff along Sully Road and Penarth Road!)

 

[Dai Corner]

But the Tram-trains are not planned for the Penarth line - only the Stadler Flirts.

I know. But they could have been.

 

[Cardiff123]

The houses blocking the old rail route from Penarth through to Sully are at the centre of they map:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4230864,-3.1747432,709m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

Once the official "railway walk" route finishes at Cosmeston drive, if you continue to follow the curving double line of trees on Google satellite along the old route, you'll see that the railway bridges are still in place over Fort Road, St. Mary's Well Bay Road and finally Swanbridge Road. Build a bridge over Lavernock Road, and if it wasn't for the houses at Birch Lane and Rowan Close, a tram-train route could easily be built as far as Sully, terminating just after Swanbridge road.

It is frustrating that all of the focus of the Metro is on the Valleys, when this route is also desperately needed, but because it's in the affluent Vale of Glamorgan, it's being overlooked.

 

[Brissle Girl]

A 5 minute stroll is much more attractive a proposition than a 20 min walk each way, particularly in the dark wet winter months. So better if you are looking at modal shift for commuting. And it would bring Cosmeston Country Park within walking destination of the station as a leisure destination too.
If the cost was limited to the actual infrastructure cost then it would make a lot of sense, but the bureaucracy of relaying a closed line almost certainly makes it too much effort (eg Portishead).

 

[Cardiff123]

A 5 minute stroll is much more attractive a proposition than a 20 min walk each way, particularly in the dark wet winter months. So better if you are looking at modal shift for commuting. And it would bring Cosmeston Country Park within walking destination of the station as a leisure destination too.
If the cost was limited to the actual infrastructure cost then it would make a lot of sense, but the bureaucracy of relaying a closed line almost certainly makes it too much effort (eg Portishead).

Why is it too much effort to build new, or re-open old railway infrastructure, but building new roads, local govt won't hesitate to buy up the land and property needed to make it happen? Apart from some industrial units immediately after Penarth station and the houses on Birch Lane/Rowan Close, rebuilding the line to Sully should be relatively straightforward.

Meanwhile, the Dinas Powys bypass proposal has gained a lot of support in recent years but ultimately will solve nothing, and will make traffic congestion even worse when it converges on the Merrie Harrier junction in Llandough, which is already well over capacity. Major enhancements to the capacity of the VoG line are needed instead, both in terms of longer trains and improved infrastructure.

Then there's the new road to the airport in the Western Vale, that the VoG council was keen on, again this will involve buying up land and property to build it.

Unfortunately, buying up some built on land and property to rebuild rail lines and undo the extremely bad and ill thought out decisions of the 1960s is inevitable. Or we will simply need to live with increasingly unmanagable and unsustainable traffic congestion.