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Southeastern revenue staff making an appearance

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Barn

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They have a habit recently of doing checks at Plumstead in the counter-peak direction (i.e. only checking tickets of people alighting in the morning or boarding in the evening). Whilst I can see the merit in that to avoid making people miss their work trains, it does appear a bit of a strange use of resources. I wonder whether they are actually there primarily to count people, in order to get better statistics for the next franchise? The official usage numbers are much lower than the true numbers.
 
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Islineclear3_1

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They have a habit recently of doing checks at Plumstead in the counter-peak direction (i.e. only checking tickets of people alighting in the morning or boarding in the evening). Whilst I can see the merit in that to avoid making people miss their work trains, it does appear a bit of a strange use of resources. I wonder whether they are actually there primarily to count people, in order to get better statistics for the next franchise? The official usage numbers are much lower than the true numbers.

Perhaps there is a higher incidence of ticketless travel at this time? Or introduce an element of surprise against the given expected norm? People travelling towards London in the peak are (probably) more likely to have paid for their journeys
 

duncombec

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They were accompanying the conductor/guard/on-board supervisor/whatever the current job title is on my train between Maidstone East and Ashford mid-morning on Wednesday.

When they decide to check at Chatham, it's usually in the company of BTP rather than Revenue Protection.
 

Antman

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Indeed, they also do regular checks on the footbridge for people changing trains to go further into Kent.
I've never seen that when I've been at Dartford. Often it's a cross platform interchange anyway with no need to use the footbridge.
 
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brad465

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There was one time last year on the Medway Valley line on a Sunday afternoon 3 RPOs were on-board and a guard also selling tickets, but there were flaws in their approach on that day - they didn't fine/prosecute anyone but ordered anyone without a ticket to go to the guard in the next carriage to buy one, which is fine, except the ticket machines on this line are/were notoriously unreliable, and one innocent person was made to buy a ticket, who couldn't collect tickets due to an issue, but the lead RPO said they hadn't been charged, which was incorrect (I hope they claimed).
 

Jonny

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A common occurrance in the metro area is for people to jump off a train that they have boarded down the line, dash to the nearest Oyster reader to tap in and then jump back on the train to continue their journey into London

Could they have come in on paper tickets?
 

Horizon22

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What doesn't help either is that the Excess Fares Offices at London terminals are increasingly unstaffed, so barrier staff have no real option but to let someone through if there's no Revenue support around.
 

Neil Sadler

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I travel up from Westenhanger to St Pancras every day and often have my ticket checked on all four sectors. RPI’s are often visible at Ashford and around the area.
 

philthetube

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I got out at Blackheath off peak recently and was only 1 of 2 people to tap out... Was just wanting to see if this was typical.

One of those could have been me, I travel up on paper once a week, Seasons don't need to tap out either
 

ScotGG

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Yep but anecdotal though it is, a frequent traveler across London will see that the number who tap in SE land is far lower on some lines and stations compared to other areas of the capital where revenue is protected to a far greater degree (eg 75% of stations have manned barriers v 20% on the Woolwich line). Years of experience shows me that it may be 50% of people who tap elsewhere and one in 10 in SE areas. I suppose they could all be using paper but it's a stretch. The difference is notable it you use different stations across the capital on a daily basis.
 

Skimpot flyer

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Seems unlikely to me that an honest person, travelling in to London from beyond the zones, would buy a ticket to travel to the first station with an on-platform Oyster reader, so they could tap-in. Aside from requiring them to stay alert (so they don’t miss the stop), and the inconvenience of jumping off and back on again, is it at all likely they’d save money vs an end-to-end return ticket (or season) ?
 

Barn

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Hmmm, highly unlikely....

I do that, heading out of London. I have a season ticket valid on the North Kent Line via Blackheath but not (so far as I know) on the Bexleyheath line. When travelling from London to a Bexleyheath line station I hope out at Blackheath, touch in, re-board the train and tap out at the final stop. Nothing improper about that at all, as far as I'm concerned.
 

MedwayValiant

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I travelled yesterday on a Dartford to Rainham short, and three Southeastern revenue staff were on the train doing their thing. They issued at least four penalty fares, and those only what I saw, so their presence was clearly worthwhile.

But, the service on which they were working was a Thameslink service. Do Southeastern revenue staff actually have jurisdiction on it, or will anyone who appeals a penalty fare have it cancelled as improperly issued?
 

DVD

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I have used Southeastern's Sidcup line for twenty five years, the first twenty two as a peak hours commuter, the last three as a predominantly off peak traveller three or four times a week. My local stations Sidcup and New Eltham are gated, Sidcup gates seem to be manned for much of the day, New Eltham's less so. New Eltham has gates in the station building but no gates on the stairs where most passengers from down trains alight.

The next three stations, Mottingham, Lee and Hither Green, are ungated. There may be occasional ticket inspections there, although I have never observed them from the train.

I cannot remember the last on board ticket inspection I witnessed on the Sidcup line. But I am pretty sure it was well over ten years ago, probably longer.

I have also witnessed passengers doubling up to go through the gates at Charing Cross without tickets. The gate staff seem to ignore it. I do understand the risks of challenging potentially hostile fare evaders. I once asked a chap on the gates about this just after this happened and he just shrugged his shoulders.
 

Islineclear3_1

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But, the service on which they were working was a Thameslink service. Do Southeastern revenue staff actually have jurisdiction on it, or will anyone who appeals a penalty fare have it cancelled as improperly issued?

I am sure I've read elsewhere that revenue staff employed by one TOC can do checks on other operator's services. As TL trains stop at SE stations, it would certainly be in the company's best interest to do so
 

bionic

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They did a sting at Charlton last year, train pulls in, announcement that a full ticket check will be done, cue most of the train getting off and then caught on the platform by an army of Grippers. Train closed doors and headed off with no ticket check done onboard. Very clever I thought.

Thats not a sting. Thats the driver pressing the auto announcement on the PIS off his or her own back... probably to have the exact effect that it did - but its certainly not organised for drivers to play that announcement. I've used it a fair bit when I've seen a gang of toerags getting on my train. Sometimes they'll get off, sometimes they won't.
 

transmanche

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Do Southeastern revenue staff actually have jurisdiction on it, or will anyone who appeals a penalty fare have it cancelled as improperly issued?
TOCs often make an arrangement with other TOCs on a common section of route allowing TOC A's RPIs to issue PFs to passengers on TOC B's trains. GTR's Penalty Fare Scheme document sets it all out in detail.

This version of the document from 2016 is out of date, as it doesn't include newer Thameslink routes.
 

RJ

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They're often around at Swanley. I've been approached on more than one occasion by plain clothed RPIs on the platform asking to see my ticket.
 

TrenHotel

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I've seen them once in the past year on the metro routes.

Southeastern's attitude was summed up for me the one morning during the summer and had to get the first train in, at 5.30am, and was mildly concerned by the fact I was the only person to have tapped my Oyster on the reader. I got off at London Bridge not only to find the gates wide open (which I half-expected), but switched off, so I couldn't tap out. It did make me wonder how many people on low-paid jobs actually depend on the free travel SE offers at certain times of day.
 

Antman

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I travelled yesterday on a Dartford to Rainham short, and three Southeastern revenue staff were on the train doing their thing. They issued at least four penalty fares, and those only what I saw, so their presence was clearly worthwhile.

But, the service on which they were working was a Thameslink service. Do Southeastern revenue staff actually have jurisdiction on it, or will anyone who appeals a penalty fare have it cancelled as improperly issued?
They're often around at Swanley. I've been approached on more than one occasion by plain clothed RPIs on the platform asking to see my ticket.
Are you sure they were genuine? I was told by a Southeastern guard that they don't have plain clothed RPIs. I travel through Swanley regularly and I've never been asked for a ticket there.
On another subject I have seen Southeastern doing ticket checks on Thameslink trains occasionally.
 

bionic

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SE have an RPI depot at Swanley which is why you occasionally see them there. They can go and check a few tickets while the kettle boils.
 

RJ

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Are you sure they were genuine? I was told by a Southeastern guard that they don't have plain clothed RPIs. I travel through Swanley regularly and I've never been asked for a ticket there.

Yes. The first thing I do is ask to see ID as they could be anybody. Just because a guard told you that, doesn't mean it's true.
 

Antman

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Yes. The first thing I do is ask to see ID as they could be anybody. Just because a guard told you that, doesn't mean it's true.
No but this particular guard seemed to know what he was talking about. I don't see the point of plain clothed RPIs anyway, surely they should be a high profile deterant to fare dodgers?

I have seen REOs and BTP at Swanley in the evening sometimes but that's about anti social behaviour rather than revenue.
 

Dumpton Park

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Heading further East, I'd estimate the % of times the gates at Canterbury West are in operation (off peak at least) is about one time in ten, at best. On a lot of High Speed services there don't seem to be checks before Ashford, either.

Seeing as hardly any stations east of Ashford that feed into Canterbury have gates (Broadstairs I think does and that may be it), it's a strategic failing to not make the most of the gates that exist. A security guard/support officer and someone with a portable ticket machine wouldn't solve the problem (Sturry and Chartham would surely see their nominal passenger figures rocket!) but it would be a start...

DP
 

Meerkat

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I don't see the point of plain clothed RPIs anyway, surely they should be a high profile deterant to fare dodgers?

If you haven’t got many then revenue bods in plain clothes can have a much bigger effect than in bright colours. Nab a few regular offenders who look like they will have lots of friends and the rumours will spread like wildfire.
A bit like the fear of unmarked police cars or mobile speed traps.
 

Antman

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If you haven’t got many then revenue bods in plain clothes can have a much bigger effect than in bright colours. Nab a few regular offenders who look like they will have lots of friends and the rumours will spread like wildfire.
A bit like the fear of unmarked police cars or mobile speed traps.
But nobody will know they are 'revenue bods' if they are not in uniform. A high profile presence will be far more effective.
 
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Thameslink have an agreement with Southeastern where by they will check their trains in the Kent area. Its because their Passenger Hosts/RPIs are mainly based north and south along the Bedford to Brighton route. Remains to be seen once they ramp up the service, and if Govia were to lose the SE franchise if they eventually employed their own revenue staff however at this moment in time SE sound like they are doing a good job from the amount of sightings.

GTR Great Northern staff also check tickets on TL trains towards Cambridge and Peterborough and Southern staff can also check tickets where their network overlaps. Obviously a bit different because they are all brands/employees of GTR.

Are you sure they were genuine? I was told by a Southeastern guard that they don't have plain clothed RPIs. I travel through Swanley regularly and I've never been asked for a ticket there.
On another subject I have seen Southeastern doing ticket checks on Thameslink trains occasionally.
 
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