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South Wales 'Metro' updates

Dai Corner

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Envoy

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Arguably, politics apart, the Citylinks would be more suited to Penarth / Barry Island and the Flirts to the longer Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr lines.

But it's all been decided now anyway.

Also note that at present trains from the central valleys run direct down to the coast. When the new system is up and running, everybody from the central valleys will have to change in Cardiff for Barry, Rhoose etc.

Meanwhile, yesterday, the issue about the lack of on-board toilets had much publicity on BBC Wales:>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49743976
The lack of toilets on new tram-trains that will serve the south Wales valleys has been branded "dehumanising".
 

Robertj21a

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S-Bahn

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Very interesting to see savings of 20-25% being planned. With much greater frequencies too, I can see that the trams should be very successful.

Although removing the toilets on these services will be a disaster. When you gotta go you gotta go....
 

S-Bahn

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First Generation DMUs Class 116 trundled up and down the Valleys for years without toilets

And in the Victorian era people brought chamber pots onto trains and urinated out of the window.

We are not animals, we live in a society.
 

Brissle Girl

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And in the Victorian era people brought chamber pots onto trains and urinated out of the window.

We are not animals, we live in a society.
So how do people manage on longer tube runs from the suburbs, which can easily be 45 minutes? Or on the local services from WGC, Hertford North, Shenfield into London, (about 50 mins), or indeed many local bus services. And I'm sure the majority of people sit in rush hour traffic for 45 minutes without needing to take a comfort break. Or is it that the valley's bladders are weaker than in other parts of the country? As has been explained before, if you're that desperate there will be many more toilets at stations, and by the time you've done what you need to, the next tram will soon be along (especially south of Pontypridd, when there will be one every 5 minutes.) An accessible toilet will take away a huge amount of space, increase overcrowding, and add cost, weight and also increase servicing costs, especially when those who choose to treat public toilets in a different way to which they would treat those at home use the facilities.
 

Envoy

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So, if you are drinking alcohol coming up the valley from Cardiff, you had better hurry up and finish before you reach Pontypridd/Caerphilly. Is this rule suggesting that the people in the upper valleys are irresponsible?

I can see the point of not having toilets on these tram-trains but I do wonder about how viable it will be to have new toilets at the various unmanned stations in the valleys? May I suggest that Transport for Wales actually build one of their new toilets at a station in the valleys immediately in order that it can be determined that it will not be vandalised? It clearly would be crazy to roll out an expensive programme of new toilets at unmanned stations throughout the valleys to then have to abandon them due to vandalism.

I note that the A470 (main road through the middle of Wales linking north & south) has no service areas/toilets. So, if for instance you need to go in the Brecon area, you actually have to drive into the town and use the supermarket. Perhaps TfW should start by building a ‘service area’ at Llangurig - where south-north and east-west routes cross?
 

Llanigraham

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I note that the A470 (main road through the middle of Wales linking north & south) has no service areas/toilets. So, if for instance you need to go in the Brecon area, you actually have to drive into the town and use the supermarket. Perhaps TfW should start by building a ‘service area’ at Llangurig - where south-north and east-west routes cross?

I'd love to see the paperwork between Powys CC and TfW to justify a "railway" facility/toilet on a road 13 miles from the nearest station, and when Powys CC have closed nearly all their public toilets.
 

Robertj21a

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So, if you are drinking alcohol coming up the valley from Cardiff, you had better hurry up and finish before you reach Pontypridd/Caerphilly. Is this rule suggesting that the people in the upper valleys are irresponsible?

Edited....

I think the alcohol ban on the Valley lines has been in effect for some years now, so passengers should be more than used to it.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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The toilet issue is a very real one for people with some chronic disablities.

Ironically though it's the legal requirement for accesible toilets that make them too large to fit into the quite narrow Flirts. I presume that the reduced width of the Staedler units compared to the current fleet is a requirement for on-street running.
 

Envoy

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The toilet issue is a very real one for people with some chronic disablities.

Ironically though it's the legal requirement for accesible toilets that make them too large to fit into the quite narrow Flirts. I presume that the reduced width of the Staedler units compared to the current fleet is a requirement for on-street running.

I thought the ‘Flirts’ are normal size trains and not intended for street running?
 

MarkyT

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Perhaps they could convert rooms in the vast range of redundant buildings on Pontypridd's original platform into huge urinals to cope with the rush after a big match in Cardiff...
 

MarkyT

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Ironically though it's the legal requirement for accesible toilets that make them too large to fit into the quite narrow Flirts. I presume that the reduced width of the Staedler units compared to the current fleet is a requirement for on-street running.

I thought the ‘Flirts’ are normal size trains and not intended for street running?

Flirts will be normal width, and Anglia examples definitely have toilets. Cardiff's Citylink tram-trains aren't planned to have toilets but I don't think they're so narrow as to preclude them completely if a customer really wanted one for a much longer rural run. The Sheffield cl.399s are 2.65m wide and Anglia cl.755s are 2.72m for the passenger cars and 2.815m for the power pack, so there's actually only 70mm, or under 3 inches difference. It's not like comparing trams with mainland European width trains.
 

edwin_m

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I thought the ‘Flirts’ are normal size trains and not intended for street running?

Flirts will be normal width, and Anglia examples definitely have toilets. Cardiff's Citylink tram-trains aren't planned to have toilets but I don't think they're so narrow as to preclude them completely if a customer really wanted one for a much longer rural run. The Sheffield cl.399s are 2.65m wide and Anglia cl.755s are 2.72m for the passenger cars and 2.815m for the power pack, so there's actually only 70mm, or under 3 inches difference. It's not like comparing trams with mainland European width trains.
A few Karlsruhe tram-trains, also 2.65m wide, were built in the 90s with toilets (and bars!) for longer-distance workings, but I doubt the toilet would meet current UK accessibility requirements. The bar wasn't economically viable and both it and the toilet were locked out quite soon after going into service.
 

S-Bahn

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The issue with toilets is that there was clearly an identified need to put toilets on trains - that's why they were added to designs and its something that anyone could use anytime. For those services mentioned that don't have toilets on trains, I'm sure the passengers would think a toilet would be a good idea.

Anyone could suddenly have an upset stomach, or feel nausea and not be able to make it to the next station (assuming the toilet is open).

It's a backward step not to have them on the new trains. The FLIRT's will have them. Why not ask Stadler to remove them from the spec for the Rhymney-Barry-Penarth services if there is no demand for toilets on trains?

I suspect the real issue is the tram-train lines are being upgraded on the cheap (not full electrification) and the design of the City-link does not allow for the fitting of retention tanks and all the other plumbing/electricals to have a functioning modern DDA compliant toilet on the tram-train - after all why are they buying two different types of trains, when they could have just bought FLIRT's for the whole Valley Lines network....(answer - for a short section of pointless street running in Cardiff Bay to get the AM's excited and win the tender).
 
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Horizon22

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As someone resident on routes where there are services without toilets (376s), this is an incredibly short-sighted move which I envisage backfiring not long in the near future.
 

Cardiff123

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I suspect the real issue is the tram-train lines are being upgraded on the cheap (not full electrification)

The entire 'Core Valley Lines' is being electrified to 25 kV standard. Some sections will remain neutral, and under these sections the tram-trains will run on on-board batteries
 

Dai Corner

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Professor Mark Barry is the academic mind behind the South Wales Metro project.

This is what he has to say
There has been quite a bit of debate this last week as regards the provision of toilets on the new tram-trains planned on the South Wales Metro for the services through Pontypridd to Cardiff. I thought I’d add to the conversation….



First let’s look at some facts….



Today, old pacer and other train stock operate on the valley lines and most fall foul of legal requirement to comply with new “Persons of Reduced Mobility “(PRM) law by the beginning of 2020. It’s clearly not acceptable and has resulted in some passengers at worst not being able to use the trains at all, or at best, having a pretty poor travel experience. Transport for Wales (TfW) know this and have been busy trying to upgrade stock and secure new trains to satisfy these requirements in advance of the new fleet arriving from 2022/3.





Current services from Merthyr, Aberdare Treherbert typically take an hour to reach Cardiff with at best 2 trains an hour. There is no level boarding (so no easy wheelchair access) and most stations do not have toilets. Yes, the trains do have toilets – but sometimes these are locked if there are faults. In fact after a journey from home, say in Dowlais, to Merthyr station you could be waiting up to a further half an hour for a train at a station with no toilets at all, the same is true of Aberdare I believe, and most of the stations on the valley lines.





When engaged in transport planning one has to weigh up and assess a wide range of costs and benefits and reflect the needs of current and potential passengers. These factors include congestion, demand, capacity, PRM compliance, station design, service frequency and yes, costs – both capital and revenue.





Choices always have to be made and transport planners do their best to deliver the most value to most people; they also have to asses a range of alternative measures to deliver the same outputs.





For example, do you invest in level boarding at every station to reduce barriers to wheelchair access to trains and in more fully accessible toilets at most stations along the line, or do you invest in toilets in every vehicle and thereby reduce network capacity (preventing less people from travelling ) as well as adding to operating costs. I am not saying what is right or wrong – but there are always choices and these choices are influenced by the type of service, journey and its length.





When addressing these questions in respect of the valley lines, we should be doing so with reference to services we will be getting in future – not what we have today!





When Metro is operating by 2023/4 – new tram-trains will run from Merthyr, Aberdare and Treherbert to Cardiff Central and Cardiff Bay. With maximum journey times of the order 45-50 minutes and frequencies of 4tph from the HoV with 12tph through Pontypridd (which itself will only 22 minutes from Cardiff), it will be a completely different experience from that endured today. All vehicles will be designed for level boarding and stations will be upgraded, many more with fully accessible toilets so that no-one is more than 15 minutes from a toilet. I would argue that people often spend longer getting to/from the station.





And to be clear all other trains being procured as part of the W&B franchise will have toilets – including, the tri-modes operating on the Rhymney Line from Rhymney to the Vale of Glamorgan.





So, no-one, as the headlines have suggested in the last few days, will be traveling on services longer than an hour. The maximum as set out above is about 50 minutes and the vast majority of people will have station to station journeys of 30 minutes or less. This is not at all like intercity or regional rail services.



metro-vehicle-in-cardiff-central.png

Figure 1 TfW Tram-train LR Metro Vehicle for South Wales Metro



2019-09-19.png

Figure 2 Metro Services (from TfWRail presentation 2018)





I appreciate the concerns, they are valid – but choices have to be made with finite resources.

The core of the south wales metro is being designed and operated as a high capacity, high frequency urban transit system. In that respect it is very much like the Manchester Metrolink (similar demographic and socio-economic catchment) the Croydon Tramlink, Tyne and Wear Metro and even London Underground. None of those system have toilets and many of them offer services with longer journey times than those proposed for the tram-trains. Even some of Cardiff Bus services from the periphery of the city will have similar or longer journey times to the centre of Cardiff than from Aberdare for example. In fact, the vast majority of local bus services offer no toilet facilities and of course, no car journeys do at all.





In essence what is proposed for the core valleys through Pontypridd is best practice for “light rail systems” and will be fully PRM compliant so that no-one will be prevented from using rail services to visit family or friends, go to hospital, get to work or for leisure.





I believe TfW did consult and engage the views of groups like Disability Wales, RNIB, Age UK, MIND, Action on Hearing Loss and many others. Furthermore, during the procurement, the bidders would have presented their solution to some of these groups via the Public Transport Users Advisory Panel and the Accessible Transport Panel. None of what is proposed should be a surprise or is without precedent for similar public transport systems. I also think the commitment to enhance our stations with accessible features will actually set our services apart from many others, for example in Manchester or Croydon.





I think the issue of toilets on trains has been misrepresented with little mention of the overall plan to deliver widescale accessibility improvements which will make the metro a far more inclusive, comfortable and stress-free mode of travel than it is currently is today for some passengers. Overall the system will provide more and faster services that everyone can access, more passenger facilities and be far more PRM compliant than the system that exists today.





Finally in respect of the match day debacle – well that’s an issue now already. A train full of say 250 people with full bladders are not likely to be satisfied with one toilet! Surely much better to use large scale and perhaps temporary facilities at key stations irrespective of whether there is a toilet on the train or tram-train? Finally, if the population of SE Wales are uniquely unable to comply with accepted norms of toilet behaviour, I would seriously consider using CCTV and dish out heavy fines.



I hope this helps better frame the current discussions.



Thanks also to Katie Allister for helping to refine this article

https://swalesmetroprof.blog/2019/09/21/toilets-on-tram-trains/
 
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S-Bahn

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The entire 'Core Valley Lines' is being electrified to 25 kV standard. Some sections will remain neutral, and under these sections the tram-trains will run on on-board batteries

As I said, on the cheap. The battery tech is bound to fail leaving carriages trapped in tunnels etc.

Would have been better to carry out the full electrification (as was the original plan) or don't bother and just buy 4-car CAF Class 195's for the whole valley lines network.
 

Dai Corner

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As I said, on the cheap. The battery tech is bound to fail leaving carriages trapped in tunnels etc.

Would have been better to carry out the full electrification (as was the original plan) or don't bother and just buy 4-car CAF Class 195's for the whole valley lines network.

Full electrification would have meant no heavy batteries to carry around, leaving more scope for toilets and the associated tanks too.
 

MarkyT

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As I said, on the cheap. The battery tech is bound to fail leaving carriages trapped in tunnels etc.
Battery storage is generally very reliable and fast becoming totally mainstream in road vehicle designs, whether hybrid or fully electric, and we don't hear stories of large scale failures on the highways. On rail, allowing longer wiring gaps through difficult areas such as tunnels and bridges can make very significant savings.
 

krus_aragon

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MarkyT

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Full electrification would have meant no heavy batteries to carry around, leaving more scope for toilets and the associated tanks too.
Clearly it does weigh something, but the discontinuous electrification concept allows the battery bank to be limited in size compared to a totally battery driven solution which would have to carry sufficient charge to make it to the next static charging opportunity at a terminus or depot. Batteries can be spread about and tucked into spaces where toilets and tanks wouldn't be practical, on the roof for instance.
 

MarkWiles

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Well said Mark Barry. The Tyne and Wear Metro replaced DMU stock with loos with non-toilet Metro stock. Metrolink trams replaced partially and fully toilet equipped trains to Bury, Altrincham, Oldham and Rochdale, the latter running for nearly 15 miles, with toiletless vehicles. Croydon Tramlink replaced mainline trains, some of which would have a toilet. Toiletless main line trains will run from Reading to Essex at some point in the future when they can finish the Lizzie line. I'm sorry to have to say this but this whole kerfuffle over the toiletless trams seems to have been whipped up by journalists who want to knock TfW as an arm of the Welsh Government, cynically using people with genuine concerns and conditions as an excuse to have a go at the scheme. Five minute's research into the various Metro schemes around the UK of which Manchester is the closest analogue would show that exactly what is proposed for Greater Cardiff is no different to Greater Manchester, and I assume Greater Manchester has more than it's fair share of people with urinary and bowel disorders who somehow manage to use the network.
 

Gwenllian2001

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Should the new rolling stock have toilets? When the first generation d.m.us were introduced they did not have toilets neither did their steam predecessors. The difference between then and now is that all stations in the area had ample toilet facilities. The downgrading of stations over the years saw these facilities removed which could make for some very uncomfortable journeys until the new stock appeared. Until the 'restoration' of Cardiff Central there were large and well maintained facilities for both sexes off the subway immediately beyond the ticket barriers. These were replaced by very small facilities situated towards the ends of the platforms. Totally inadequate and difficult to find, they were, and are, not an adequate replacement. To provide proper facilities in the valleys lots of new toilets will need to be built and, presumably, staffed to avoid the kind of criminal damage which seems to be the social norm amongst young people. Even with tighter timing a lot of journeys on the network will be longer than other Metro style services. Despite what the professor might think, on train facilities will be much more convenient and might well prove to be cheaper in the long run.
 

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