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Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

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Don Steedy

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Today’s ‘The Railway centre’ picture of the day shows 442422 being top and tailed by 47s on route to Eastleigh Arlington for AC work

2422 was heading for interior refurb. 2409 moved back to Bournemouth today by the same 47s following interior refurb
 
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mchd2000

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Does anyone have any update on how long the 442s are expected to remain out of service for? Any news on progress with this electrical interference issue?
 

bb21

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Does anyone have any update on how long the 442s are expected to remain out of service for? Any news on progress with this electrical interference issue?

No estimate. Whole class withdrawn until further notice. They need to ensure they iron all the problems out once and for all.
 

hwl

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No estimate. Whole class withdrawn until further notice. They need to ensure they iron all the problems out once and for all.
At this point it should be less effort and quicker to do the AC conversion inc. auxiliary supplies.
 

bb21

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At this point it should be less effort and quicker to do the AC conversion inc. auxiliary supplies.
It would be less effort and more preferable to scrap the whole life-expired fleet.
 

hwl

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It would be less effort and more preferable to scrap the whole life-expired fleet.
Completely agree. Naive bid teams and ROCSOs bearing polished t***s are not good combination for the TOC or passnegers!
 

theironroad

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Does anyone have any update on how long the 442s are expected to remain out of service for? Any news on progress with this electrical interference issue?

I'd doubt we see them back before the end of the year at the earliest.

Not only will the technical work to rectify the fault have to be done &/or take the opportunity to do the AC conversion work, then a lot of drivers will have lapsed competence to drive them and pretty much most will have to do refresher /upgrade training at the least.
 

bb21

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Completely agree. Naive bid teams and ROCSOs bearing polished t***s are not good combination for the TOC or passnegers!
If rumours (from reliable sources albeit) were to be believed, using them was more a decision by heart than by head. They have been nothing but trouble, annoying equally customers and staff. There was a reason why Stagecoach got rid of them. Personally I secretly hope I never see them in use ever again.

So we're never going to see them again then. ;)
By the time (if) they ironed out all the issues, there will most likely be more suitable stock becoming available so sending this pile of crap to the scrapyard would be a most sensible course of action. ;)
 

pompeyfan

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If rumours (from reliable sources albeit) were to be believed, using them was more a decision by heart than by head. They have been nothing but trouble, annoying equally customers and staff. There was a reason why Stagecoach got rid of them. Personally I secretly hope I never see them in use ever again.


By the time (if) they ironed out all the issues, there will most likely be more suitable stock becoming available so sending this pile of crap to the scrapyard would be a most sensible course of action. ;)

I was recently told that the franchise spec mandated 23m 2+2 stock, hence why the 442 were the only suitable available stock. This seems a bit far fetched surely? I still can’t see anything becoming available that would be suitable.
 

Goldfish62

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If rumours (from reliable sources albeit) were to be believed, using them was more a decision by heart than by head. They have been nothing but trouble, annoying equally customers and staff. There was a reason why Stagecoach got rid of them. Personally I secretly hope I never see them in use ever again.


By the time (if) they ironed out all the issues, there will most likely be more suitable stock becoming available so sending this pile of crap to the scrapyard would be a most sensible course of action. ;)
Given they're needed by December, which perhaps is increasingly unlikely perhaps it's time for the DfT to activate its strategic reserve 365s and stick the shoes back on...
 

pompeyfan

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Given they're needed by December, which perhaps is increasingly unlikely perhaps it's time for the DfT to activate its strategic reserve 365s and stick the shoes back on...

keep them in a small pool of depots and on Basingstoke stoppers and you might get away with it. That said, SWR are struggling to crew trains as it is, with lots of other TOCs pinching drivers all over the show. 2 steps forward, 1 step backwards.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Does anyone have any update on how long the 442s are expected to remain out of service for? Any news on progress with this electrical interference issue?

The issue has been confirmed as a track circuit in the Wimbledon installed after the removal of 442s from traffic on SWR but whilst they were still cleared in the sectional appendix. The ball is very much in NR’s court but there is a degree of confidence they will be back in time (hopefully earlier) for the Dec timetable.
 

HamworthyGoods

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It would be less effort and more preferable to scrap the whole life-expired fleet.

That’s all very well but we don’t exactly have fleets of 3rd rail trains sat spare in this country, new trains aren’t arriving on time either.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Given they're needed by December, which perhaps is increasingly unlikely perhaps it's time for the DfT to activate its strategic reserve 365s and stick the shoes back on...

365s back to 3rd rail isn’t a viable option with the spare equipment kept as ‘ a pattern’ at Hornsey in case this was ever required long since biting the dust.

This so far they have been ruled out on DC for anything, with the need to replace 2 car 466 on South East branches it’s been looked at there but simply not pragmatic.

As for south western who even knows what signalling immunisation would be needed to run the 365s.
 

theironroad

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The issue has been confirmed as a track circuit in the Wimbledon installed after the removal of 442s from traffic on SWR but whilst they were still cleared in the sectional appendix. The ball is very much in NR’s court but there is a degree of confidence they will be back in time (hopefully earlier) for the Dec timetable.

How about Millbrook?
 

Goldfish62

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365s back to 3rd rail isn’t a viable option with the spare equipment kept as ‘ a pattern’ at Hornsey in case this was ever required long since biting the dust.

This so far they have been ruled out on DC for anything, with the need to replace 2 car 466 on South East branches it’s been looked at there but simply not pragmatic.

As for south western who even knows what signalling immunisation would be needed to run the 365s.
That's a shame, because as Roger Ford points out the DfT now has a strategic reserve of flexible EMUs to call on in time of need.

Mind you I'm sure before it actually happened that various claims were made that 365s would never be drafted into Scotland.
 

hwl

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The issue has been confirmed as a track circuit in the Wimbledon installed after the removal of 442s from traffic on SWR but whilst they were still cleared in the sectional appendix. The ball is very much in NR’s court but there is a degree of confidence they will be back in time (hopefully earlier) for the Dec timetable.
The depot headshunt and access to the up fast have also been altered since so it may not be just a TC equipment issue. The traditional type impedance bonds (even the best spec) can't really cope with huge current miss matches between the running rails, huge DC flows between track circuit area or certain transients (e.g. cause by 3rd rail gaps/ changing sides).

Swapping to newer audio frequency types may help but other local features will also need addressing.

The 442s were a bodge with fingers crossed originally and have caused loads of problems and ultimately addressing the rolling stock will be required too.
 

swt_passenger

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I was recently told that the franchise spec mandated 23m 2+2 stock, hence why the 442 were the only suitable available stock. This seems a bit far fetched surely? I still can’t see anything becoming available that would be suitable.
As far as I can find the franchise ITT didn’t specify any particular stock on the relevant routes, it just put a cap on total first class provision on “mainline” services. The franchise agreement (which is written after the award) defined the agreed capacity that the 442s would provide, but still didn’t specify where they were to be used. In summary I cannot find anything that says they had to choose the 442s, but it’s possible that 2+2 23m end door stock was on some “stakeholder” wish list.
 
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moley

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As far as I can find the franchise ITT didn’t specify any particular stock on the relevant routes, it just put a cap on total first class provision on “mainline” services. The franchise agreement (which is written after the award) defined the agreed capacity that the 442s would provide, but still didn’t specify where they were to be used. In summary I cannot find anything that says they had to choose the 442s, but it’s possible that 2+2 23m end door stock was on some “stakeholder” wish list.
IIRC SWT stated that they had no intention of changing the stock provision on the Pompey Direct. This would suggest that it wasn’t mandated but has just subsequently been made part of the franchise agreement.
 

hwl

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IIRC SWT stated that they had no intention of changing the stock provision on the Pompey Direct. This would suggest that it wasn’t mandated but has just subsequently been made part of the franchise agreement.
Agreed.
 

bb21

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That’s all very well but we don’t exactly have fleets of 3rd rail trains sat spare in this country, new trains aren’t arriving on time either.
There's me of the understanding that you do not introduce a fleet that will decimate your timetable which was already fragile during peak commuting hours, and set to become even more so with the proposed service enhancements (as was the case when the franchise was bid), even if that meant ordering new stock as a last resort and delayed capacity enhancements. Promising the earth and then totally screwing people's commute (even more) is not going to win any brownie points for anyone and crossing fingers hoping for the best is hardly the way to make a sound business case.

Even on days they weren't interfering with track circuits, they weren't a great show and hardly ever made their (already generous) performance targets. I highly doubt they will settle down, but we shall see. I had hoped I (and many of my experienced colleagues) could be proved wrong, but am still waiting. I would absolutely love it if that were the case as I will get far fewer people moaning at me.

I need to stop here as I may otherwise say things I will regret in the near future.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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That’s all very well but we don’t exactly have fleets of 3rd rail trains sat spare in this country, new trains aren’t arriving on time either.
707s after redundancy? <D
In all seriousness, if they scrap the project that’s a hella lot of wasted money and time
 

bb21

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... but it’s possible that 2+2 23m end door stock was on some “stakeholder” wish list.
Pretty much. The demand was for 2+2 seating as that was the biggest gripe with 450s.

Whether it were to be 442s, 444s, whatever class I doubt the commuters would care, as long as it is done up nicely.

There is no reason 2+2 layout cannot be used on 20m stock, which would in theory give a higher overall capacity than 23m stock. (No I'm not hinting at anything. ;))
 

samuelmorris

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Pretty much. The demand was for 2+2 seating as that was the biggest gripe with 450s.

Whether it were to be 442s, 444s, whatever class I doubt the commuters would care, as long as it is done up nicely.

There is no reason 2+2 layout cannot be used on 20m stock, which would in theory give a higher overall capacity than 23m stock. (No I'm not hinting at anything. ;))
I know this is a textbook case of the crayonism that's so (rightfully) mocked on here, but honestly? There is other old 23m end-door stock now sitting idle, it just needs a PRM exclusion and driver training on something to haul it. Training will still be needed for the 442s if/when they are ever resurrected, and almost every other TOC it seems is getting a deferment of the PRM rules for all the delay to their new stock / refurbishments, why not SWR? I don't normally subscribe to this sort of thing but the 442s have become a bit of a farce, the main body of the work (the re-traction) doesn't even appear to have started yet. If they're that desperate for more 23m end-door stock and aren't prepared to wait for/pay for new build EMUs, I genuinely wonder if they should consider getting in line for loco-hauled Mk2s or Mk3s. It's not as if there aren't already diesel-hauled services from Waterloo.

Otherwise yes, if they aren't being held at gunpoint to introduce specifically 23m end-door stock and actually just 2+2, the 707s would do fine, as might resurrecting some 319s.
 

Goldfish62

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I don't normally subscribe to this sort of thing but the 442s have become a bit of a farce, the main body of the work (the re-traction) doesn't even appear to have started yet.
The first unit has been done and is currently being tested.
 

Terry Tait

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All this tech causing big problems, go back to simple engineering that actually worked properly.
 
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