Battery Powered Electrostars for Southern

[jopsuk]

In the October 2019 Modern Railways it is let slip that as part of the Regional part of East Midlands Railway going all-Turbostar that they will take on Class 171s from Southern, with those being replaced on diesel services by Electrostars equipped with batteries.

Two questions:
1. Have GTR actually said anything about this?
2. Which Electrostars? With no new fleet actually yet planned for Southeastern and the 379s (which don't currently have 3rd rail shoes and never have, but presumably could have them fitted) possibly not leaving Greater Anglia after all, is there slack in the Southern fleet?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Quote from The magazine p. 57:

Converted Electrostar EMUs with bi-mode battery capabilities

Answer to the question

1. No
2. Article seems to suggest that they will be converted (in other words has not been done yet)? Or C2C are replacing theirs? My best guess is converted 379’s from GA

 

[Chrisgr31]

GTR have no need to comment as its not their problem! Their franchise expires before the existing leases on the 171s expire. It will be an issue for the new operator to solve.

 

[Camden]

What/who was testing a battery powered emu? Pretty sure it was an electrostar being tested

 

[edwin_m]

What/who was testing a battery powered emu? Pretty sure it was an electrostar being tested

It was a 379. From what I read somewhere on here the battery wasn't really up to the job, but it's a few years ago so the tech has probably improved a bit. I don't know if the other Electrostar classes would be more difficult to fit with batteries. Curious that this should come out from EMT, especially as it would normally be the future franchisee who decides on the solution and they don't even exist yet.

 

[hwl]

It was a 379. From what I read somewhere on here the battery wasn't really up to the job, but it's a few years ago so the tech has probably improved a bit. I don't know if the other Electrostar classes would be more difficult to fit with batteries. Curious that this should come out from EMT, especially as it would normally be the future franchisee who decides on the solution and they don't even exist yet.

379013. The batteries later went to Viva rail who found they were pretty inadequate and life expired.

The alleged plan was that the 376s from SE would get reformed into a mix of 6/4 car units, but the SE franchise award got can'd. The advantage of DC only units is the space and weight saving from not having a transformer and rectifier as in the AC 379 case.

 

[Roast Veg]

The only way forward, then, might be for the DfT to press ahead with SE changes themselves to keep the franchises moving. If not, then EMT will have to hold on to a binder of 158s.

 

[Neptune]

Aren’t all Electrostars able to be converted to DC from AC and vice versa?

If so:-
Are c2c’s class 387’s being displaced by the Aventra’s on order? There’s 6 potentially for a start.

Are GA are keeping all 379’s for Stansted? If so will they need all 30 as some are currently used on non Stansted services from what I understand. So potentially up to say another 10 there.

16 x 4 car units replacing 8 x 4 car and 12 x 2 car 171’s. 64 vehicles replacing 56.

All hypothetical I know but potentially an option.

 

[hwl]

Aren’t all Electrostars able to be converted to DC from AC and vice versa?

If so:-
Are c2c’s class 387’s being displaced by the Aventra’s on order? There’s 6 potentially for a start.

Are GA are keeping all 379’s for Stansted? If so will they need all 30 as some are currently used on non Stansted services from what I understand. So potentially up to say another 10 there.

16 x 4 car units replacing 8 x 4 car and 12 x 2 car 171’s. 64 vehicles replacing 56.

All hypothetical I know but potentially an option.

24m vehicles being replaced by 20m so a small loss in vehicle length overall

 

[Peter Sarf]

The 387s were DC capable and it might not be too far gone for that capability to still be working. Were not some/all of the GWR 387s originally on Thameslink/Southern ?. I think GWR could have a few spare sooner rather than later and, in any case, the AC only 379s might well cover anyway.

BTW All the 379s will become redundant aiui. Anglia are definitely replacing ALL their EMUs and there is a specific order of EMU Flirts (iirc) for Stansted (and LiverpoolStreet-Norwich).

The improved performance of an Electrostar on the DC parts of the route (at least Purley to London), compared to a DMU 171, would be very welcome making them slot into paths amongst other EMUs more neatly. This would override any performance loss at the country end which would not affect the general Southern service pattern/capability. That is even if the overall journey time for travellers on say London Bridge to Oxted is longer. This would also mean direct services to Victoria are possible - these don't currently exist as diesels are effectively banished from Victoria.

Right, time to put my crayons away. And in any case my beloved 442s would be far better .

(thats another thread brought down to standard).

 

[hwl]

The 387s were DC capable and it might not be too far gone for that capability to still be working. Were not some/all of the GWR 387s originally on Thameslink/Southern ?. I think GWR could have a few spare sooner rather than later and, in any case, the AC only 379s might well cover anyway.

BTW All the 379s will become redundant aiui. Anglia are definitely replacing ALL their EMUs and there is a specific order of EMU Flirts (iirc) for Stansted (and LiverpoolStreet-Norwich).

The improved performance of an Electrostar on the DC parts of the route (at least Purley to London), compared to a DMU 171, would be very welcome making them slot into paths amongst other EMUs more neatly. This would override any performance loss at the country end which would not affect the general Southern service pattern/capability. That is even if the overall journey time for travellers on say London Bridge to Oxted is longer. This would also mean direct services to Victoria are possible - these don't currently exist as diesels are effectively banished from Victoria.

Right, time to put my crayons away. And in any case my beloved 442s would be far better .

(thats another thread brought down to standard).

The original plan was that so GWR 387s would be ex GTR however they were all new build in the end.
GWR are taking over running HEx which more than utilises the"spare" 387s.
379s - Anglia got the sums wrong on new rolling stock requirements so unless some (quite few) services are shortened. They have also signed a new lease on the 379s (we don't know for how long)...

From my comments on the EM rolling stock thread:

"Porterbrook have the 319s/769s with many more coming free from Northern due to the WM 323s being taken on. They also have 23x 377/5 and 2x 377/1 on sublease from GTR with SE and 37x 350/2 from WM (with a battery flex trial conversion being done).
Eversholt have the 376s potential spare from SE (if everything had gone ahead.)
Hence given PB are apparently in the running there are many possibilities (also worth considering if there might be some alignment with SN 313 replacement that would allow Ashford - Brighton etc to run again.)"

 

[Peter Sarf]

The original plan was that so GWR 387s would be ex GTR however they were all new build in the end.
GWR are taking over running HEx which more than utilises the"spare" 387s.
379s - Anglia got the sums wrong on new rolling stock requirements so unless some (quite few) services are shortened. They have also signed a new lease on the 379s (we don't know for how long)...

From my comments on the EM rolling stock thread:

"Porterbrook have the 319s/769s with many more coming free from Northern due to the WM 323s being taken on. They also have 23x 377/5 and 2x 377/1 on sublease from GTR with SE and 37x 350/2 from WM (with a battery flex trial conversion being done).
Eversholt have the 376s potential spare from SE (if everything had gone ahead.)
Hence given PB are apparently in the running there are many possibilities (also worth considering if there might be some alignment with SN 313 replacement that would allow Ashford - Brighton etc to run again.)"

Thanks for that. I had forgotten all about the 769s !. Plus I did not consider how the battery 350/2 conversion was progressing. I think the most likely would be the 769s, if they overcome their technical birth problems, as they have served the more critical part of the route as 319s already.

 

[hwl]

Thanks for that. I had forgotten all about the 769s !. Plus I did not consider how the battery 350/2 conversion was progressing. I think the most likely would be the 769s, if they overcome their technical birth problems, as they have served the more critical part of the route as 319s already.

769s - 20m Mk3 bodyshells don't fit through the Oxted Tunnel so only a solution for Marshlink...

 

[LowLevel]

The only way forward, then, might be for the DfT to press ahead with SE changes themselves to keep the franchises moving. If not, then EMT will have to hold on to a binder of 158s.

The opposite apparently. The contract is agreed with the ROSCO for them to leave and it's up to others to find replacement stock regardless.

 

[Peter Sarf]

769s - 20m Mk3 bodyshells don't fit through the Oxted Tunnel so only a solution for Marshlink...

Gosh, that tunnel again... Presumably Electrostars can get away with it ?. How about 350s though ?.

 

[Neptune]

Gosh, that tunnel again... Presumably Electrostars can get away with it ?. How about 350s though ?.

I’m fairly sure that 350’s were designed around the dimensions of the class 319.

 

[MatthewRead]

Gosh, that tunnel again... Presumably Electrostars can get away with it ?. How about 350s though ?.

Only Mark 3 derived stock can't get through that tunnel!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Only Mark 3 derived stock can't get through that tunnel!

Ah. Oh, but wait a minute, surely my beloved 442s....... ?.

 

[MatthewRead]

Ah. Oh, but wait a minute, surely my beloved 442s....... ?.

No only Mark 3 derived stock is banned from that line.

 

[Fincra5]

Best idea is to splash some Cash and Electrify the 2 Gaps on the GTR network.

 

[Doomotron]

Best idea is to splash some Cash and Electrify the 2 Gaps on the GTR network.

Presumably the 379s (which will probably be the new Marshlink trains) could be modified to work with 377s, so theoretically they could replace them on East Coastway services and then could either work the full length and go onto batteries at Ore if the line doesn't get electrified or connect to a 377 and at Ore could divide (but admittedly that wouldn't help the awful capacity on the Marshlink line despite how little used the line is. At this point the best thing for it would be to electrify it, double it and extend the platforms to at least six coaches (maybe 8 at Rye and Ham Street) so capacity isn't an issue anymore.

 

[43096]

No only Mark 3 derived stock is banned from that line.

Banned or just never been cleared?

 

[43096]

Best idea is to splash some Cash and Electrify the 2 Gaps on the GTR network.

Is the right answer, rather than coming up with new subfleets fitted with whatever the in vogue form of bionic duckweed is.

 

[Chrisgr31]

In my opinion the 319s even if rebranded as 769s would be a real backward step on the Uckfiled line. They are 10 years old than the 171s and have 3+ seating rather than 2+2 and dont have tables I believe.

The 171 fleet is one of the most comfortable fleets on the network and well appointed. If trains that are seen as inferior are introduced I suspect many passengers will vote with their feet and use the Brighton or Hastings lines instead.

 

[southern442]

No only Mark 3 derived stock is banned from that line.

Of which the class 442 is undeniably a member?

 

[southern442]

The improved performance of an Electrostar on the DC parts of the route (at least Purley to London), compared to a DMU 171, would be very welcome making them slot into paths amongst other EMUs more neatly. This would override any performance loss at the country end which would not affect the general Southern service pattern/capability. That is even if the overall journey time for travellers on say London Bridge to Oxted is longer. This would also mean direct services to Victoria are possible - these don't currently exist as diesels are effectively banished from Victoria.

Having peak hour trains from victoria at the very least would certainly be welcome. Additionally, having electrostars on Marshlink could also mean a return of the faster service on that line running the full length of the east coastway - something that I think would be very welcome.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Having peak hour trains from victoria at the very least would certainly be welcome.

Someone I know always called the Uckfield service to London Bridge a temporary service. Its been so temporary they have retired now!

 

[hwl]

Banned or just never been cleared?

Won't fit though Oxted tunnel reverse curves without hitting something coming in the other direction...

 

[hwl]

In my opinion the 319s even if rebranded as 769s would be a real backward step on the Uckfiled line. They are 10 years old than the 171s and have 3+ seating rather than 2+2 and dont have tables I believe.

The 171 fleet is one of the most comfortable fleets on the network and well appointed. If trains that are seen as inferior are introduced I suspect many passengers will vote with their feet and use the Brighton or Hastings lines instead.

Just as well mk3 stock can't get through the Oxted tunnel then.

769s are a Marshlink option though

 

[RichJF]

Could it be a long shot to suggest that some Electrostars go for bimode conversion & surplus SWR stock moves over to cover the Turbostar shortfall once the Aventras come along?