Refusal to endorse ticket - delayed on split tickets

[323235]

Hi All,

Just thought I would share my experience today of travelling with an Off Peak Return from Poynton to Leeds and Northern Flash Sale Advance from Leeds to Lincoln.

I took the 0929 from Poynton - Manchesrer 0952 - Delayed by 13 minutes late

Missed the 1005 to Leeds (1107) so went for the 1017 to Huddersfield (eventually left 1038) which was delayed due to an engine fault of unspecified delay length , so I went for the 1035 to Leeds (1135). This got delayed due to overcrowding and being stuck by the faulty Huddersfield train so arrived Leeds at 1142.

I had missed the 1138 booked train to Lincoln so went and got my Lincoln tickets from the machine and went to the ticket office. Two ticket office staff and a supervisor told me I could not have my ticket endorsed as I was travelling on two seperate tickets and therefore 2 contracts and could not travel on the next train. They did give me back my tickets and told me to speak to the guard.

In the end I went and asked the guard if it was OK to travel and she was fine. Although she was only ever going as far as Sheffield (this trains cancelled from Sheffield - Lincoln due to lack of train crew.

I've never encountered this before ever! It's my first major trip out in 4 months due to illness and so I could have done without this additional stress. I had no issues from.either guards but what would have happened if there was no reasonable guards (e.g. DOO trains)?

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Who runs the ticket office at Leeds? Their staff need a refresher on the National Rail Conditions of Travel...

 

[323235]

It's a Northern ticket office.....

 

[cactustwirly]

Hi All,

Just thought I would share my experience today of travelling with an Off Peak Return from Poynton to Leeds and Northern Flash Sale Advance from Leeds to Lincoln.

I took the 0929 from Poynton - Manchesrer 0952 - Delayed by 13 minutes late

Missed the 1005 to Leeds (1107) so went for the 1017 to Huddersfield (eventually left 1038) which was delayed due to an engine fault of unspecified delay length , so I went for the 1035 to Leeds (1135). This got delayed due to overcrowding and being stuck by the faulty Huddersfield train so arrived Leeds at 1142.

I had missed the 1138 booked train to Lincoln so went and got my Lincoln tickets from the machine and went to the ticket office. Two ticket office staff and a supervisor told me I could not have my ticket endorsed as I was travelling on two seperate tickets and therefore 2 contracts and could not travel on the next train. They did give me back my tickets and told me to speak to the guard.

In the end I went and asked the guard if it was OK to travel and she was fine. Although she was only ever going as far as Sheffield (this trains cancelled from Sheffield - Lincoln due to lack of train crew.

I've never encountered this before ever! It's my first major trip out in 4 months due to illness and so I could have done without this additional stress. I had no issues from.either guards but what would have happened if there was no reasonable guards (e.g. DOO trains)?

There's no requirement to get your tickets endorsed, you can just take the next train of the same ToC, providing you left enough time to catch your connection (ie the minimum connection time)

 

[323235]

There's no requirement to get your tickets endorsed, you can just take the next train of the same ToC, providing you left enough time to catch your connection (ie the minimum connection time)

Thank you for your reply. Yes I was aware of the fact I could take the next train (providing the original connection time adhered to the minimum connection time specified for the station) regardless of any advice to the contrary, I just thought it would make life easier - how wrong I was!

Likewise I like to speak to the guard before boarding, just so they are aware out of courtesy. A refusal would not prevent me from exercising my rights.

 

[Coolzac]

To treat paying customers like this is a shambles. You are the one who has been inconvenienced by all the delays, to then have to 'ask' the guard is ridiculous. To have been delayed and then have been refused permission to complete your journey by the ticket office staff is such a complete failure of customer service it's hard to comprehend!

Is it any wonder it's hard to persuade some people out of their cars?

 

[Hadders]

There is no requirement to get tickets endorsed or ask the guard.

While I understand why people do it what are you going to do if they say no?

If I have an issue like this I just get on and then have a discussion with the guard if necessary (in lots of cases there isn’t a ticket check during disruption anyway).

 

[etr221]

Other threads dealing with similar situations (late running/disruption causing connections not to be made) have come out of hassles when passengers have just got on the next train, with comments that 'tickets should have been endorsed'... So?

 

[Hadders]

Other threads dealing with similar situations (late running/disruption causing connections not to be made) have come out of hassles when passengers have just got on the next train, with comments that 'tickets should have been endorsed'... So?

We generally only get to know about things on here when they go wrong. No-one ever posts to say everything went ok.

Staff should endorse tickets in the event of disruption but we know that many either don't want to or refuse to do it. This is unacceptable but we are where we are so my view is it's best to be pragmatic about the situation.

If you do ask for tickets to be endorsed and you get refused you're in a tricky situation, particularly if you know you are 100% correct.

If you get on board in the majority of cases the guard will be perfectly ok
There might not even be a ticket check
If the guard doesn't like your ticket on explanation they are likely to 'let you off this once'

If it does escalate further then pay what is demanded, take full details of what happened including the member of staffs name, and take it up with the train company. If you are 100% in the right then you will get your money back. To be fair this could be a bit of hassle but no more than a refusal if you ask for an endorsement and get refused.

 

[SickyNicky]

And to be fair, it is very, very rare for us to receive a complaint that a customer wasn't permitted to travel onwards on split tickets following a delay. In fact, I can't remember the last time it happened. Most of the problems we see are due to mistakes in the restriction data allowing use of a ticket that wasn't intended to be used at a given time, and then the train company refusing travel despite the customer holding an itinerary and usually their own website offering the same ticket at the same time.

 

[Belperpete]

Other threads dealing with similar situations (late running/disruption causing connections not to be made) have come out of hassles when passengers have just got on the next train, with comments that 'tickets should have been endorsed'... So?

Yes, but endorsed by who? If I have missed a connection due to a late-running train, and need help completing my journey, I world go to the station supervisor, not the booking office.

 

[maxbarnish]

I agree. I had a missed connection onto an advance ticket (again) recently due to an incoming delay, and station managers office at Exeter St Davids sorted it out no problem, as they have always done. And XC had no issue with it - with the letter from Exeter

 

[Coolzac]

Yes, but endorsed by who? If I have missed a connection due to a late-running train, and need help completing my journey, I world go to the station supervisor, not the booking office.

I ask would an ordinary member of the public know this? To most rail passengers the obvious people to see about their advance ticket is the people who sell tickets, and that's not an unreasonable assumption.

 

[najaB]

I ask would an ordinary member of the public know this? To most rail passengers the obvious people to see about their advance ticket is the people who sell tickets, and that's not an unreasonable assumption.

No, it is not unreasonable and the booking office would be able to help by issuing a zero-fare excess (instead of endorsing the existing ticket).

 

[323235]

I've had my ticket endorsed and stamped by Euston ticket office when I was delayed once - they didn't even bat an eye lid.

What is the issue with writing on the back of a ticket and stamping a stamp?

Why complicate it with specifying who does it - All passenger facing station staff (within reason) should be able to do it.

I wouldn't even know where to find the station manager at Leeds? - Doesn't the station manager work for Network Rail - how do they have authority to deal with tickets and delays when they are not a train operating company?

If only the railway was one system who all worked together putting the passenger first.

 

[PG]

I ask would an ordinary member of the public know this? To most rail passengers the obvious people to see about their advance ticket is the people who sell tickets, and that's not an unreasonable assumption.

Yes, but endorsed by who? If I have missed a connection due to a late-running train, and need help completing my journey, I world go to the station supervisor, not the booking office.

I've got to agree that "Joe/Jane Public" are more likely going to ask at the ticket office than hunt out the Supervisor's office particularly if it's tucked away at the end of a different platform.

A few years back I was delayed on TPE arriving at Haymarket so had missed my Scotrail departure and the station staff helpfully directed me to the supervisor. A couple of phone calls later and I'd got permission to take the next VTEC service with a letter in case of any query instead of a near 2 hour wait. Excellent service without any "not our TOC" hassle

 

[323235]

That's a really great result, as we all know there are a lot of good eggs who are willing to do what is right to help passengers.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, but endorsed by who? If I have missed a connection due to a late-running train, and need help completing my journey, I world go to the station supervisor, not the booking office.

This is unrealistic. I always speak to the platform staff if I can see any and go to the ticket office if I can't, or if they are too busy. Sometimes the platform staff have referred me to the ticket office as they are unable to help me.

Most stations don't have signed supervisors offices, or any obvious points of contact for customers with the most senior person on site. At the largest stations (e.g. Leeds) there is an information desk, I will sometimes try there but have usually been referred somewhere else in the past.

Ticket offices are clearly signed locations. If they're unable to assist, they can and should refer the customer to somebody who can (although preferably this is to be minimised on, there's no problem with it as long as the overall time to see the customer is fairly quick - say, within 10 minutes of them first asking). What ticket offices must not do is disseminate inaccurate information, even if they are not correctly equipped to help.

 

[najaB]

What ticket offices must not do is disseminate inaccurate information, even if they are not correctly equipped to help.

I'd like to think that few ticket office staff would knowingly give out inaccurate information.

 

[MrEd]

I've had my ticket endorsed and stamped by Euston ticket office when I was delayed once - they didn't even bat an eye lid.

What is the issue with writing on the back of a ticket and stamping a stamp?

Why complicate it with specifying who does it - All passenger facing station staff (within reason) should be able to do it.

I wouldn't even know where to find the station manager at Leeds? - Doesn't the station manager work for Network Rail - how do they have authority to deal with tickets and delays when they are not a train operating company?

If only the railway was one system who all worked together putting the passenger first.

Some rail staff, for whatever reason, seem bizarrely hostile to the notion of endorsing a ticket. I’ve never understood why this is, as I would take the view that as long as they’re trained in ticketing (or even customer service), then they ought to be authorised to endorse a ticket. A Greater Anglia conductor once claimed to me that he was not authorised to endorse tickets when I was on a very late running train on the East Suffolk line, and was due to miss the intercity from Ipswich to London for which I held a train-specific advance. Not wishing to take any chances on a penalty fares route, I decided to buy a new ticket at Ipswich, then complained to GA who apologised for the conductor’s intransigence, and got a £20 rail travel voucher back.

Then one morning when the sleeper trundled into Inverness two hours late, the Caledonian Sleeper hosts (London crew) were adamant that they were not allowed to endorse my advance ticket for the 8.55 Inverness to Kyle to permit travel on the 10.56, and insisted that I needed to buy a new walk-up ticket from Inverness booking office as it was apparently my fault I’d missed the 8.55 and that I should have factored in the possibility for the sleeper to be delayed (as if I had the power to make a Class 67 fail at Edinburgh in the early hours, and in any case the minimum connection time at Inverness is 5 minutes; I believed both of these statements to be entirely inaccurate). Knowing that the worst a Scotrail conductor could do was issue an anytime single (the same one I’d have got from the booking office), I just got on the Kyle train, explained my predicament to the conductor and he (predictably) let me travel without paying any extra. When I told him about the ’advice’ the CS staff gave me, he rolled his eyes and just said ’well they need retrained immediately, that’s not good enough’. I later emailed CS to ask exactly what their policy was and they confirmed that there was absolutely no reason why the sleeper hosts could not have endorsed the ticket on that occasion, and apologised for the poor service and inaccurate information.

I wonder why some staff have this aversion to endorsing tickets? Of course, technically, there is no need for an endorsed ticket if a connecting train was late, but some revenue staff can be needlessly anal about this (and I definitely wouldn’t show an expired advance in a penalty fares area, where RPIs could be in force, without a full endorsement). Perhaps some staff worry that they will get into trouble if they authorise travel where they shouldn’t have done?

 

[35B]

If they write it down, they become accountable. If it’s verbal, they are not accountable.

 

[Coolzac]

It's absolutely shocking the examples given above. As a railway enthusiast and lifetime customer of the railways it really saddens me that people like this work on the railway. The TOCs really do need to become more customer friendly, especially when customers have been delayed or otherwise inconvenienced by them!

 

[sheff1]

I definitely wouldn’t show an expired advance in a penalty fares area, where RPIs could be in force, without a full endorsement.

Sorry you feel that way and a sad reflection on modern day rail travel in this country.

The Advance ticket is certainly not "expired" in such circumstances and personally I would have no hesitation in using one (unendorsed) on a later train if a booked connection was missed.

 

[EastCoastway]

I spend a lot of my life dealing with people who need their tickets endorsing, scribble and stamp job done! It's about doing whats right for the customer.

 

[PG]

I spend a lot of my life dealing with people who need their tickets endorsing, scribble and stamp job done! It's about doing whats right for the customer.

You are a credit to the railway and I for one thank you for your attitude

 

[EastCoastway]

You are a credit to the railway and I for one thank you for your attitude

I mean the point of the railway is to keep people moving, not penalise them. Some TOC's don't belive this to be true though...

 

[E100]

I mean the point of the railway is to keep people moving, not penalise them. Some TOC's don't belive this to be true though...

Hear hear. A credit indeed.

 

[MotCO]

As a matter of interest, can a passenger endorse their own ticket? Technically it could be classified as fraud, but if a guard refused, and you were only doing what he/she should have done, what's the harm? Who would know?

 

[E100]

On the back of this thread, I have encountered an issue before with a certain Northern guard and despite quoting the NRCoT to their face was told in no uncertain terms I would be kicked off at the next station unless I purchased a new ticket. I purchased one though obviously complained and demanded a refund and Northern retrain their guards on the matter. Got the refund but doubt this has taken place in terms of retraining. Bumped into them the other day and resisted the very strong urge to show them the reply obtained from national rail and northern on the matter.

 

[farleigh]

I spend a lot of my life dealing with people who need their tickets endorsing, scribble and stamp job done! It's about doing whats right for the customer.

Good post