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BBC SPAD increase story - “Survivor fears safety 'could be slipping'”

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Meerkat

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49666089

Is this a worrying rise (or a worrying lack of decrease) or actually a drop considering the rising number of trains?
“In addition to July seeing the highest number of Spads for more than a decade, the past 12 months has seen 10 trains pass red signals and reach the "conflict point" - the position along the track at which a collision could theoretically take place.”
That does sound like riding your luck
 
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SPADTrap

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IMO, desperation to pass out extremely high numbers of newly trained drivers has lead to a slide in the quality of training, with companies trailing new and dangerous ways of training people, GTR's 'self study' for example. I think this shows that you cannot recruit and train high numbers of drivers in a short space of time, it just doesn't work.

You also have the issue of RSSB 'committees' making decisions to strip elements of the rule book with cost in mind, see the LNER overspeed at Sandy South RAIB report where it cites the committee considered little other than cost when making decisions that ultimately played a role in this event.

The industry has done its very best to flush experience out of itself, a decision they'll pay for at some point. As someone who trains drivers on a high speed line, seeing the impacts of this 'condensed' training new drivers are receiving (at their previous company) is very frustrating.
 

civ-eng-jim

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Is there anything data to suggest that it's predominantly newly-qualified drivers who are SPADing?
 

SPADTrap

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It isn't solely new drivers, but the statistics for PQ1 and PQ2 drivers who have incidents is sad.
 

keith1879

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If you look at the link there is a graph at the bottom which suggests that there is no significant upward trend in the absolute number of Spads occurring....and as pointed out above this is an absolute number - not one adjusted for numbers of trains. Is it just a blip? We would need more detail to be sure either way.
 

Meerkat

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I guess the question is whether we just have to accept SPADs will happen or whether we should expect to be making a clear improvement.
 

Killingworth

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Every SPAD has an explanation and statistics can only pick up trends. Drivers are the best people to comment, especially those with long years of experience on different traction, routes and weather. I'd wonder if standards of reporting have changed so a minor infringement might not have been recorded in the past. Looking at these stats it appears a large number involve only a short distance beyond the signal. For the benefit of the rest of us what are the distinctions?

All drivers must be under pressure to maintain timetables that allow very little recovery margin. I'm aware of a recent SPAD and have sympathy with the driver,. As an ordinary rail user I don't know what happened after the day in question, but it certainly caused a degree of knock on chaos as procedures were followed.

A service booked for 2x158 was sent out as 3x153 and was running late when it should have stopped to allow a 142 to complete possession of a single track section. There are countdown marker boards to the passed signal but the train didn't stop in time. Stranded for an hour only half a mile from their destination passengers were fuming. On the other train passengers who had just joined were also fuming. After an hour the 153s were backed up a short distance and all returned to normal, albeit with countless trains delayed across the network.

Procedures have to be followed. A head on crash could have occurred. Those not directly involved can't know more of the details and can only speculate what else might have happened, but an enquiry must have been held.

However if the Castlefield corridor hadn't made a major contribution to the delay the train might not have been in such a hurry. If it had been 2x158 maybe it would have stopped a little sharper? No doubt the driver will have been penalised, but it's many shortcomings on the railway that contribute to making accidents happen. Castlefield will be decades to resolve. The single line section should have been resolved last year, but won't be until 2023. 153s shouldn't be running after the end of 2019, and shouldn't have been running to support a 156 or 158, let alone 3 of them together.
 

Edders23

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At the end of the day even a very experienced driver can make a mistake so I doubt this is something that can be decreased by much
 

MarkyT

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The 'potentially severe' incidents in the graph seem to fluctuate quite widely, which might be expected from such a small figure. The 2018/19 figure for this category seems quite in line with the 10 year average but is a large step up over the last three years' average which has been unusually low comparatively. The 'unclassified' category is higher for the latest two years as a current snapshot presumably because some more complex recent incidents are still under investigation and are yet to be fully resolved. Lets hope they don't also end up as potentially severe, as that would significantly affect the trend. My take is that TPWS is still saving lives and injuries effectively, including those of train crew.
 

LAX54

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Are these just CAT A or CAT B and C included too ?
 

MarkyT

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Are these just CAT A or CAT B and C included too ?
I think these must all be 'category A', as the overall figures seem to match NRs graph here:
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/who-w...ce/signals-passed-at-danger-spads-category-a/
Signals passed at danger

A signal is passed at danger (SPAD) when a train passes a stop signal when not allowed to do so.

SPADs are one of the potential precursors to railway accidents. Since the train protection and warning system (TPWS) was introduced serious SPAD incidents and the risk arising from SPADs have been greatly reduced.

We produce quarterly safety reports which include a summary of SPADS, this can be found on our data portal.

There are many SPADs each year, but most have little or no potential to cause harm because they are the result of minor misjudgements of distance or braking capability, or they occur at low speed. In most cases, the trains stop within the safety overlap provided at the signal.

The overlap is a clear section of track beyond the signal, usually 183 metres long, which protect against minor overruns. Generally, trains have to run past the safety overlap before there is any potential of collision or derailment.

SPADs are only one of the potential precursors to railway accidents. Since the train protection and warning system (TPWS) was introduced serious SPAD incidents and the risk arising from SPADs have been greatly reduced...
 

SPADTrap

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Is that drivers with 1 and 2 years experience respectively?
Yes it is sorry, 'PQ' standing for 'Post Qualifying' Year 1 and 2, generally speaking there is a two year 'Post Qualifying' cycle of assessment and monitoring that is more regular and structured.
 

geoffk

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153s shouldn't be running after the end of 2019, and shouldn't have been running to support a 156 or 158, let alone 3 of them together.
I don't know the details or the location of this event, but do 153s have braking problems? They are regularly used by Northern to make 3-car trains and without them overcrowding would be even worse. They won't be able to run on their own as they are not PRM-compliant but are still needed to provide enough capacity. And what about 155s?
 

satisnek

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This is typical of today's BBC. They really do love the words 'could', 'may' and 'might'.
Paddington was supposed to be a watershed but a series of fatal rail crashes followed at Hatfield in 2000, at Selby in 2001 and at Potters Bar in 2002.
Ye gods. One of them wasn't even anything to do with the railway or its management.
 

geoffk

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This is typical of today's BBC. They really do love the words 'could', 'may' and 'might'.

Ye gods. One of them wasn't even anything to do with the railway or its management.
For Selby presumably read Great Heck.
 

corsaVXR

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The article mentions halving the figure from 593 to 273 over a space of 10 years. Looking at the graph, it's basically been stagnant. This suggests that whatever strategy is being used has reached its maximum effectiveness, and a new strategy is needed.
 

Iskra

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If we're running more trains, surely it's only logical that the total number of SPAD's is going to increase? What we really need to know is, is the there a disproportionate increase?
 

LOL The Irony

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If we're running more trains, surely it's only logical that the total number of SPAD's is going to increase? What we really need to know is, is the there a disproportionate increase?
Indeed. I would like to see the increase in services vs the increase in SPAD's.
 

vikingdriver

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Just looking at our SPAD calendar for 2019, we are long way past last years total and still have another 3 months to go for this year. Had a lot of TPWS, stop shorts etc too. The feeling on the ground from the people actually driving the trains is that the rostering and diagrams need looking at, however this falls on deaf ears as the reply from the 9-5 desk drivers is that the rosters and diagrams are within acceptable parameters but instead we've come up with yet another crazy idea to turn things around whilst ignoring the truth - probably because it would be expensive in terms of extra manpower. This is for a TOC with a relatively stable and predictable roster, can't even imagine what is like on the freight side!
 

Surreytraveller

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Just looking at our SPAD calendar for 2019, we are long way past last years total and still have another 3 months to go for this year. Had a lot of TPWS, stop shorts etc too. The feeling on the ground from the people actually driving the trains is that the rostering and diagrams need looking at, however this falls on deaf ears as the reply from the 9-5 desk drivers is that the rosters and diagrams are within acceptable parameters but instead we've come up with yet another crazy idea to turn things around whilst ignoring the truth - probably because it would be expensive in terms of extra manpower. This is for a TOC with a relatively stable and predictable roster, can't even imagine what is like on the freight side!
The parameters are devised by people who have never done shift work. Trouble is, rosters cannot do anything against those parameters, because if something untoward happened, rosters wouldn't have a leg to stand on
 

87015

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The parameters are also agreed by ASLEF on behalf of the drivers who accept the money for selling those conditions...
 

vikingdriver

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The parameters are also agreed by ASLEF on behalf of the drivers who accept the money for selling those conditions...

We've had a reduction in spare movement not an increase so I'm not sure that it is correct to say that the drivers via ASLEF have made their lives worse.
 

Class 170101

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We've had a reduction in spare movement not an increase so I'm not sure that it is correct to say that the drivers via ASLEF have made their lives worse.

If drivers want more conditions these have to be paid for. No business is going to give conditions for free it will want something in return.
 

vikingdriver

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If drivers want more conditions these have to be paid for. No business is going to give conditions for free it will want something in return.

I'd expect in the interests of safety, fatigue management would be taken more seriously rather than this denial based approach that seems to exist and come for free rather than anyone needing to give anything up. Do staff and passengers really have to die again before TOCs / FOCs take note of what their staff are telling them?
 

Class 170101

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I'd expect in the interests of safety, fatigue management would be taken more seriously rather than this denial based approach that seems to exist and come for free rather than anyone needing to give anything up. Do staff and passengers really have to die again before TOCs / FOCs take note of what their staff are telling them?

I take it then that there is no personal responsibility on a driver to manage their own fatigue?
 

vikingdriver

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I take it then that there is no personal responsibility on a driver to manage their own fatigue?

Of course there is, I didn't say there wasn't. I can be as rested as possible, fresh as a daisy starting work, but when I have virtually all of my job before my bare minimum break with just a 40 minute drive back to my depot and finish after it, it massively increases risk. You are mentally exhausted by the time you get to the break. You are still exhausted after it. The diagram is fine in the eyes of the company and no it isn't a snip job.
 

millemille

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I'd be interested to understand whether an increase in running longer trains, which use more platform length and consequently have less leeway for stopping short of the signal, is driving a proportion of the statistics?

I know from the work that RSSB did in connection with T1107 that in leaf fall 2017 the SWR Desiro fleets are among the worst for SPAD's and this was largely attributed to train lengths being very close to the available platform length - in some cases the available platform was only 2 metres longer then the distance between the signal and the last set of passenger doors - and a quirk in WSP functionality meaning that at low brake demand and low speed the WSP didn't function and hence sanders didn't operate when the train slid; meaning drivers often had a very tight window between stopping short and having to motor along the platform and a SPAD with only a few meters overshoot.
 

Dieseldriver

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If we're running more trains, surely it's only logical that the total number of SPAD's is going to increase? What we really need to know is, is the there a disproportionate increase?
I take it then that there is no personal responsibility on a driver to manage their own fatigue?
I take it then that you have never worked the rosters that a Train Driver does? Even If you dedicated your entire life outside of work to ensuring you are well rested I guarantee you would still regularly attend work feeling fatigued.
Quite insulting to make a comment like that towards a Driver who is highlighting a serious problem that is faced and is a real safety issue.
 
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