Shortage of volunteers

[option]

Some jobs, like driving and guarding do require anyone carrying them out to maintain their competence, which realistically means anyone who can only spare a few days a year will be unlikely to be suitable. Likewise anyone expecting to make a useful contribution in a workshop will probably need to spend several consecutive days, in order to be able to finish any task they are given, or spend one day a week for several consecutive weeks. Someone who can only spend the odd day every now and then is likely to take up more time in being told what needs doing, shown where the tools and materials are, monitored to ensure they are competent in that particular task, and then debriefed at the end of the day so that the task can be handed over to someone else to finish, than the time they will have saved.

Expecting a volunteer to commit consecutive days on a very regular basis is not going to work.
There are plenty of people who could commit to a long weekend/a week a few times a year, & then say monthly days.

Maybe the future, on the operations side, is to have weekends staffed by those volunteers that can do days regularly, & then have big weeks staffed by those that can do 4/5 days as a holiday.
Same on the maintenance/engineering side. Regular small stuff, & then big project weeks.

 

[Meerkat]

Do the railways accept each other’s training?
Ie could they do a couple of route learning trips to have a bigger pool of volunteers?
I can see why railways might be wary of losing volunteers that way but it seems they could be facing an upcoming crisis and might need to think a bit more innovatively and this way might be able to match volunteer expectations with needs a bit better

 

[Ian Smeeton]

I have been volunteering for about a year at Rocks By Rail, the old Rutland Railway Museum.

Like most preserved railways, the average age of the volunteers is on the high side, but at least we are seeing a few younger ones turning up as well.

Because of the small number of committed volunteers, jobs are varied depending on the operating day, and the availability.

Touch wood, we have, at least as long as I have been attending, managed to attract enoigh volunteers with the correct competencies to run the service.

The main point is, that in a small operation like Rocks by Rail, apart from volunteers being made very welcome, those that do turn up can undertake a range of activities,.

We all have to put in a bit of learning the job, but advancement is rapid.

After just over a year since joining, I have reached the point where I am about to take exams (written and practical) as Fireman, and Roperunner, and have already been passed as a shunter, crossing keeper, and diesel 2nd man.

there are those who attend, who have no interest in the railway, as such, more the engineering and technical side, and they are equally welcome.

We are still recruiting, if anyone is out there!

Regards

Ian

 

[Belperpete]

Do the railways accept each other’s training?
Ie could they do a couple of route learning trips to have a bigger pool of volunteers?

Following a number of concerning incidents, preserved railways are having to pay a lot more attention to competency management. Anyone undertaking an unsupervised safety-critical role must demonstrably be competent and proficient in that role. Anyone having experience of a similar role on another line is likely to have a head-start, but I can't see any reputable line allowing someone to undertake an unsupervised safety-critical role based on just a couple of route-learning trips.

For starters, they need to know the route properly, and demonstrate that they do. Train-crew are expected to know exactly where they are - somewhere between stations many miles apart won't do if the emergency services need to be called. This level of route knowledge is unlikely to be gained through "a couple of route-learning trips".

There is also a lot else that train-crew need to know and be proved competent on. Loco-crew need to be familiar with the individual locos. Guards need to be familiar with the rolling stock, stabling arrangements, ticketing and fare arrangements, and so on. They would all need to know where everything is kept, who to contact and what to do in case of failure or emergency, all the local instructions relevant to the operation of that line, and so on, the details of which can vary greatly from one line to another.

So, while someone who is already a driver or guard on another line will have a head start, there is still a lot that they need to learn - and prove that they have learnt - before they can be allowed out unsupervised on another line.

 

[DarloRich]

I have read this thread and it seems there is, in some people, an unrealistic expectation that they should only be able to demand to do the "sexy" jobs without putting in the work doing the boring jobs. Someone has to clean, cut grass, change light bulbs, fix the toilets, someone has to go out in the rain and shovel ballast, someone has to sell guide books.

it seems many people are interested in volunteering as long as they can volunteer to drive trains with sod all experience and then get a cob on when they are refused and asked to do some boring tasks first or when they are asked to commit to a certain number of shifts.

I don't volunteer because I work hard, have limited time available to commit, don't have a car, am selfish with my spare time and don't want to waste it helping others enjoy their leisure time. Well done to those who do give up their time, they are better than I am.

I was interested to read this article about heritage railways shortage of volunteers. It surprises me they are short of volunteer steam drivers as they all seem to advertise driver experience days at eye-watering prices, which suggests to me that they must be popular. I certainly wouldnt have thought they would struggle to fill those posts.

I think there might have to be a move away from volunteering to paying staff instead, although that will massively increase running costs.

They have got away on volunteer labour for a long time. Sadly that time might be ending. More paid labour will be required.

Reading volunteering appeals on preserved lone websites it sounds like you'll be stuck on a crossing, doing gardening or cleaning engines away from the public eye for years before you do anything fun. They need to share it out a bit of my generation are going to get involved, especially with modern expectations of family time etc, if you're giving up time it needs to be rewarding.

Unfortunately, people still have that perception, not helped by the railways themselves. I asked about volunteering at the only one near me and the impression I got was that it would be a decade or so before I would be "promoted" to anything important like a guard or driver or signalman, and that I'd have to do a lot of drudgery work in the intervening years, such as cleaning etc. It was a real put-off. I'd happily do the drudgery if there was an end in sight and it was realistically short and relevant, but a decade or so is simply far too long for someone already middle aged wanting something to do during semi retirement!

But those dull jobs have to be done to let important people like you drive your train and enjoy your sexy job. Why shouldn't you put in some of your time on the boring jobs first to earn your sexy reward?

My job doesn't give me the sort of skills I can deploy on a heritage railway in my free time.

Yes it does! There are all kinds of jobs to be done. Do you not have the skills to make a cup of tea or sell tickets or cut grass? How do you know that your skills are not exactly what they are looking for in the accounting department or on the IT side? It might not give you the skills to fix a locomotive but could you not learn them? Could you not add to your skills?

This was so my experience, I suffer with anxiety, and using my love of all things "Railway" thought that this would be a good way to help me and meet new people. I was so shocked at how rude some of the volunteers where, and that fact that new members where more of inconvenience to them, it seemed that we "got in the way".

I have read the posts you made and I wonder if the first line of this one might be nub of the issue. Might you be incorrectly interpreting motives and responses from people you don't know in an environment you are not comfortable with? I have been there.

At 32, I'm under no illusions about whether or not I still qualify as a "young person", but I've been idly toying with the idea of volunteering at a local heritage railway. Having no children, and a partner who works most weekends, I do find myself with a regular pattern of free time that could be put to good use one way or another.

The primary concern, however, relates to the frosty reception often meted out to newcomers by established and longer-serving members. As a gay man, I'm not sure how welcoming an environment I'd be entering, given the lack of social awareness prevalent among certain elements of the railway fraternity.

how do you know if you don't try? Give it a go.

I would love to volunteer at a heritage railway, but I do not drive and there are none that are close enough to get to by public transport without having a rather long or complicated / expensive journey.

I am in a similar position but I know some railways have area groups that share lifts etc. My issue is having the time to commit on anything like a regular basis. I should ask work if I can take all my volunteer leave in one go as this would give me a week to commit per year.

Which just goes to show it's not that difficult, and railways that insist upon nothing but years of drudgery before a decent crack of the whip are taking the proverbial.
Once you've got the hang of getting an injector going, how and where to fling coal into the box and what the dampers and blower do the rest is finessing.

The world has moved on.

I can't speak for your specific volunteering location but there seems to be an attitude, in the wider world, that volunteers can be managed just like full-time paid staff.

They should, absolutely, be managed the same way and should be expected to comply with the same standards as paid staff. They are not playing trains but running a railway system.

When I replied that I could not meet their double figure annual commitment of turns, but offered a week in the high season, I didn't receive a response.

While I agree they should have sent you a thanks but no thanks letter ( and perhaps pointed you to a different department) I do not feel it is inappropriate for there to be an expectation that you will meet a certain number of shifts if they are to invest time and money into you. Even if that time is just a re certification it is money taken away from another job.

I've just spent 3 hours this evening doing work for a preservation group without leaving my front room. There are a lot of admin jobs to do.

Exactly!

 

[trebor79]

But those dull jobs have to be done to let important people like you drive your train and enjoy your sexy job. Why shouldn't you put in some of your time on the boring jobs first to earn your sexy reward?

You're sort of misrepresenting my meaning. I would suggest the dull jobs are shared out equally (as indeed they were on the railway I volunteered at 20 years ago), rather than simply slopey-shouldered to the recently joined minions.
At the place I volunteered, we all did our fair share of needle-gunning four hours on end, crawling around emptying ash pans, tending the track, and the more fun (to me) driving etc.
Everything still got done. No one felt taken advantage of. People seldom drifted away due to boredom as they weren't expected to do nothing but menial tasks for years, under the pretence it was essential experience.

 

[Alanko]

Yes it does! There are all kinds of jobs to be done. Do you not have the skills to make a cup of tea or sell tickets or cut grass? How do you know that your skills are not exactly what they are looking for in the accounting department or on the IT side? It might not give you the skills to fix a locomotive but could you not learn them? Could you not add to your skills?

I can make tea, I can probably sell tickets but alas I've not cut grass in a long time.

My day job is database-heavy, with a background in mapping. I imagine lots of heritage railways are using antiquated IT if at all, so there is probably some scope there!

I would happily prep and repaint locomotives!

 

[Belperpete]

They have got away on volunteer labour for a long time. Sadly that time might be ending. More paid labour will be required.

Whilst there are a few preserved railways that do rely solely on paid staff, most could not survive without a large amount of volunteer labour.

Whilst I do agree with a lot of your comments, there is an art to managing volunteers. On the railway that I volunteer on, they have tried a couple of times to bring in professional managers, and by and large it hasn't worked. If they treat volunteers in the same way that they are used to treating their paid staff in their past jobs, it just does not work. For example, sometimes it is worth letting a volunteer do a job that the volunteer feels important even if the "management" feels it is not, because that way you keep the volunteer and he/she is available to do other things, whereas if you tell a volunteer to stop what they are doing because it is not important then you are likely to lose that volunteer. With paid staff, as a last resort you can tell someone that they have to do a task as it is part of the job that they are getting paid to do, with volunteers the reward is much less tangible and so the management has to be more nuanced.

The important point that I do agree with you is that people shouldn't be put off from volunteering by thinking that they don't have the necessary skills. Whilst a significant number of volunteers do have a railway background, the majority don't. Even those that do have a railway background often (like myself) like to volunteer in a completely different role so that it isn't too much of a busman's holiday. Provided that you are prepared to put in a reasonable number of shifts, the railway will train you. If you find that you don't like that role or department, move to another, or even another railway.

 

[Llanigraham]

I can make tea, I can probably sell tickets but alas I've not cut grass in a long time.

My day job is database-heavy, with a background in mapping. I imagine lots of heritage railways are using antiquated IT if at all, so there is probably some scope there!

I would happily prep and repaint locomotives!

You might be quite surprised how modern the IT systems are on some railways, from running the signalling systems, to doing the rosters, and running web cams. And they will always be needing someone to keep it all working properly and up-dated.

The important point that I do agree with you is that people shouldn't be put off from volunteering by thinking that they don't have the necessary skills. Whilst a significant number of volunteers do have a railway background, the majority don't. Even those that do have a railway background often (like myself) like to volunteer in a completely different role so that it isn't too much of a busman's holiday. Provided that you are prepared to put in a reasonable number of shifts, the railway will train you. If you find that you don't like that role or department, move to another, or even another railway.

I was a signalman on the "big railway" but no way would you find me in the signal box my preserved line, although on non-public days I have run the Box.
Instead I am much happier working with the wagon and coach builders although I'm not a carpenter, but I do know one end of a screwdriver from the other, and can wield a saw. And I think that is the point, I do what I am interested in doing and "they" let me and we get the jobs done.

 

[StoneRoad]

I often wonder how much gender bias there is on heritage lines, because if it is obvious, then you have lost a huge number of potential volunteers without even trying ...

 

[ComUtoR]

They are not playing trains but running a railway system.

Granted, the forum isn't representative of the sector as a whole and forums tend to have skewed opinions anyway but... From what I see from the tellybox and from various anecdotal sources; it does appear that people are 'playing trains' That is at all levels.

Whilst there are a few preserved railways that do rely solely on paid staff, most could not survive without a large amount of volunteer labour.

Where does all the money go ? If your not paying your staff and are reliant on volunteers' then where is the cash flow leaking out ? Is it a case of significantly reduced income or that "operating costs" are spiraling out of control ?

 

[DarloRich]

Granted, the forum isn't representative of the sector as a whole and forums tend to have skewed opinions anyway but... From what I see from the tellybox and from various anecdotal sources; it does appear that people are 'playing trains' That is at all levels.

If that is the case ( and i don't know enough to comment beyond my own suspicions) then it needs to change because the ORR are all over heritage lines at present. I had a very interesting chat with some SVR people at the recent gala and it was clear they were concerned about the impact of any HSEA issues and the ORR response to them. If a "big" railway like that is worried what will it be like for some of the smaller ones?

Where does all the money go ? If your not paying your staff and are reliant on volunteers' then where is the cash flow leaking out ?

keeping vintage machinery going, acquiring the skills needed to do so ( Something like a copper welder is not easy or cheap to find apparently) maintaining infrastructure, investing in improving facilities and meeting the kind of outgoings every business has

Whilst I do agree with a lot of your comments, there is an art to managing volunteers. On the railway that I volunteer on, they have tried a couple of times to bring in professional managers, and by and large it hasn't worked. If they treat volunteers in the same way that they are used to treating their paid staff in their past jobs, it just does not work. For example, sometimes it is worth letting a volunteer do a job that the volunteer feels important even if the "management" feels it is not, because that way you keep the volunteer and he/she is available to do other things, whereas if you tell a volunteer to stop what they are doing because it is not important then you are likely to lose that volunteer. With paid staff, as a last resort you can tell someone that they have to do a task as it is part of the job that they are getting paid to do, with volunteers the reward is much less tangible and so the management has to be more nuanced.

It is going to have to change. There is going to have to be more professionalism even if you are a volunteer. My view is that volunteers and paid staff follow the same rules and the same procedures. The days of messing about playing trains is over.

I know that is something people don't want to hear but it is the truth. If there is an incident the ORR wont, rightly, care if you are a volunteer. That says to me either develop a more professional approach ( and that doesn't mean no volunteers but it does mean more processes, systems and rules) or don't run trains.

As a customer that means prices are going to have to go up.

 

[ComUtoR]

keeping vintage machinery going, acquiring the skills needed to do so ( Something like a copper welder is not easy or cheap to find apparently) maintaining infrastructure, investing in improving facilities and meeting the kind of outgoings every business has

Which I understand but any business has to survive and balance the costs. Speaking to an enthusiast friend, the costs to run and maintain a steam loco are quite exorbitant. I'm not looking to blame anyone but I get the impression that there is a lot of mismanagement in the Heritage sector. Maybe, in part, because that it is treated like a toy train set.

I think it needs to modernize and diversify if it is to survive.

 

[pdeaves]

My view is that volunteers and paid staff follow the same rules and the same procedures.

Agreed. The outcomes from managing volunteers should be the same as paid staff. As Belperpete says, though, it is how you manage them that varies. Not letting anyone 'get away' with things that they shouldn't, but treating them very carefully to keep them on side.

 

[trebor79]

Which I understand but any business has to survive and balance the costs. Speaking to an enthusiast friend, the costs to run and maintain a steam loco are quite exorbitant. I'm not looking to blame anyone but I get the impression that there is a lot of mismanagement in the Heritage sector. Maybe, in part, because that it is treated like a toy train set.

I think it needs to modernize and diversify if it is to survive.

Having seen the result of an apparently "complete" overhaul done commercially (ie we paid them to do the job for us) performed by one of the major names in steam loco maintenance, I would agree it needs to professionalise. Frankly they did little more than have the boiler hydraulically and steam tested after the loco had stood idle for a number of years (we were purchasing it and the overhaul was part of the deal). We found there was no floor in the smokebox. Then within months the main steam pipes started leaking from pinholes in the steel. The motion was worn and had knocks all over the place. Most concerning there was a large patch in the firebox which had been caulked to get it through the boiler tests. That quickly started weeping. After another couple of caulking attempts the loco was permanently withdrawn from traffic due to the leaks from the patch becoming excessive.
It hadn't been overhauled at all of course, merely bodged up to pass a boiler inspection.
Costs are exorbitant in part I suspect because there are not that many companies active in the sector (perceived small/specialist market) and so they can charge what they like to an extent.

 

[Meerkat]

As a customer that means prices are going to have to go up.

Can the market sustain higher prices, particularly on the smaller lines with a pretty shaky product (bit tatty, tiny non relevant locos etc)?
Family entertainment budgets are limited and some railways prices are already pretty eye watering.
Railways certainly need to be very wary of making an extensions.

 

[bionic]

I think it needs to modernize and diversify if it is to survive.

Yeah, these so-called "heritage railways" should get rid of all those tatty old steam trains and get with the times. Maybe run some old D stocks or something!

 

[DarloRich]

Agreed. The outcomes from managing volunteers should be the same as paid staff. As Belperpete says, though, it is how you manage them that varies. Not letting anyone 'get away' with things that they shouldn't, but treating them very carefully to keep them on side.

I disagree - Volunteers and paid staff are part of the same team. You treat them all with them same levels of respect and care.

 

[Meerkat]

I disagree with your disagreement!
If you are paying someone to do something you can be more prescriptive about what they do, how, and when.
If you have a mate round to help you with some DIY do you treat them the same as a builder you are paying to do the job?

 

[ComUtoR]

If you are paying someone to do something you can be more prescriptive about what they do, how, and when.

Depends. You can only tell someone to do something that that is within their scope of employment. My TOC pays me but if they told me to go clean toilets, they would get a few choice words, and I wouldn't do it.

If you have a mate round to help you with some DIY do you treat them the same as a builder you are paying to do the job?

My mate would be doing the work for free but still under my direction. If I asked them to paint my living room blue and they thought sod it and painted it lime green; we would have a few choice words.

My expectation is that someone doing a job, at my request, does so in accordance with my instructions irrespective of if they get paid or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you have a mate round to help you with some DIY do you treat them the same as a builder you are paying to do the job?

A friend did that to me and I told him where to go

The work was done in the end but on my terms as I was doing it for free

 

[Bletchleyite]

My mate would be doing the work for free but still under my direction. If I asked them to paint my living room blue and they thought sod it and painted it lime green; we would have a few choice words.

My expectation is that someone doing a job, at my request, does so in accordance with my instructions irrespective of if they get paid or not.

Yes, I'd expect to either have the end result as requested or to refuse to do it if I felt myself incapable or unwilling. But I would expect that things like timings would be on my terms, not theirs. So for instance if I'm getting too tired it's time to finish for the day, not based on what my scheduled hours are.

 

[45669]

Many years ago when I first got involved with the Festiniog (only one F in those days), the then General Manager, Allan Garraway, used to say that volunteers were not railway enthusiasts, they were enthusiastic railwaymen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. The outcomes from managing volunteers should be the same as paid staff. As Belperpete says, though, it is how you manage them that varies. Not letting anyone 'get away' with things that they shouldn't, but treating them very carefully to keep them on side.

Yes, this. In the end a volunteer can just walk - no skin off their nose. No contract, no issues with lack of funds if they quit, no notice period.

They can't do things in an unsafe manner, but you do have to treat them properly.

This is also a massive issue in Scouting, for what it's worth.

 

[Llanigraham]

I often wonder how much gender bias there is on heritage lines, because if it is obvious, then you have lost a huge number of potential volunteers without even trying ...

Generally it does seem to be a largely male entity, and where there are females of the species they end up in the shops, cafes and museums, HOWEVER there are an increasing number of railways that have active females in the driving and firing jobs; just look at the Talyllyn and the Welshpool for examples of that.

 

[45669]

I was a signalman on the "big railway" but no way would you find me in the signal box my preserved line, although on non-public days I have run the Box.
Instead I am much happier working with the wagon and coach builders although I'm not a carpenter, but I do know one end of a screwdriver from the other, and can wield a saw. And I think that is the point, I do what I am interested in doing and "they" let me and we get the jobs done.

That's an interesting point. My day to day job involved dealing with Joe Public, so in my free time volunteering I preferred to work with the PW gang down the line rather than face the public as a TTI, Guard or other public facing role. It was much more therapeutic that way.

 

[DarloRich]

My expectation is that someone doing a job, at my request, does so in accordance with my instructions irrespective of if they get paid or not.

Agreed

If you are paying someone to do something you can be more prescriptive about what they do, how, and when.
If you have a mate round to help you with some DIY do you treat them the same as a builder you are paying to do the job?

They can't do things in an unsafe manner, but you do have to treat them properly.

That is my point. You do the work to the same standard and to the same procedures regardless of the status of the staff member. You don't say, oh it is ok old bob is a volunteer so he can use that angle grinder to cut down trees!

You are right in that I cant point to a contract of employment and demand Old Bob turns in but if he tells me he is coming on Saturday and then doesn't show up without a good reason he will get the same response. I don't care if he is a volunteer - he is letting people down and that isnt on. Respect is a two way street.

 

[Malcmal]

This thread has highlighted more than a sprinkling of arrogance and complacency with regards to volunteer staff in certain quarters. One thing nobody can argue with is that they are hard to find, very easy to lose if mistreated and almost impossible to get back once things turn sour.

All the threads about heritage railways being in financial trouble and having to shut down on certain days due to a lack of volunteers make for sad reading BUT things could be mitigated if only there was more empathy towards this free labour source!

I did wonder if some railways should consider paying for volunteer expenses such as fuel, mileage, bus fares as way of improving the situation.

 

[option]

Where does all the money go ? If your not paying your staff and are reliant on volunteers' then where is the cash flow leaking out ? Is it a case of significantly reduced income or that "operating costs" are spiraling out of control ?

Utility bills
Business rates
Insurance
Marketing
Maintenance
(all of which are still being paid in the non-running season)
Hire charges
Fuel bills
Reserves (both generally & for major works)



Loads of other heritage organisations have very large volunteer numbers. Paid staff are generally on low wages & seasonal.

 

[Serathor]

I have read the posts you made and I wonder if the first line of this one might be nub of the issue. Might you be incorrectly interpreting motives and responses from people you don't know in an environment you are not comfortable with? I have been there.

No, I know when people are downright rude, especially when saying to another volunteer (a young lad) "For ***** sake, show this idiot how to couple a train" and (to me) "Well what the **** are you telling me for?" when I was trying to follow procedure.

Then being accused of stealing, and not turning up for Crossing Duty, when I told them well in advance I was not going to make it.