• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Caledonian Sleeper

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,600
Before departure last night - 1st Southbound Highlander - 73969 and 73967 in charge - lots of staff in and out the vehicles.
I've got used to seeing these ex southern locos on the WHL now, but still seems weird to see them sitting in Inverness!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
There's a bit of slack south of Perth but very little north.

I heard there was some bother with the 73s on the southbound Inverness section last night but that's just local gossip.

Anything to do with 1H53 (1806 Glasgow-Inverness running 7L at Aviemore rather than an issue with the sleeper itself?

The sleeper is timed for a wait at Moy, I’m assuming it’s waiting on the late running clearing a single line.

It also has 9 minutes at Kingussie, which is pathing time in all but name.
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,189
Location
Wittersham Kent
Don’t forget it’s now 87mph limited 92s so even more likely to be regulated out the way - at least with 100mph traction it had a chance of staying on the fasts for longer, regularly being allowed to run via Weedon when late which didn’t happen today.
My latest overnight southbound Megabus journey did Glasgow Buchanan Street to London Greenline in 7 hours 2 mins with a maximum speed of 62 mph and around 10 mins for the driver swap in Lancaster Services. This was when there were about 20 miles of 50 mph average speed cameras on the M6 south of the M62 which have since been cleared. It would seem that under 7 hours is possible in perfect conditions.
I reckon an 80 mph train should easily be able to recover 15mins before Rugby where presumably the pathing becomes critical with snappy operating.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
My latest overnight southbound Megabus journey did Glasgow Buchanan Street to London Greenline in 7 hours 2 mins with a maximum speed of 62 mph and around 10 mins for the driver swap in Lancaster Services. This was when there were about 20 miles of 50 mph average speed cameras on the M6 south of the M62 which have since been cleared. It would seem that under 7 hours is possible in perfect conditions.
I reckon an 80 mph train should easily be able to recover 15mins before Rugby where presumably the pathing becomes critical with snappy operating.

There isn’t that much recovery time in the Up Highlander - south of Rugby it’s get on the Up Fast and keep rolling. The pendolino behind it calls at Rugby and MK which is enough to keep it behind.

For the Up Lowlander it’s a bit different. It’s sufficiently early that a bi-di weave south of Nuneaton and a trip via Northampton have to be priced in, hence it usually arrives at Euston early.
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,600
Looks like all of last night's highlander services arrived near enough on time, even though the inverness portion seems to have left waverley about half an hour late.
 

6Z09

Member
Joined
19 Nov 2009
Messages
499
Looks like all of last night's highlander services arrived near enough on time, even though the inverness portion seems to have left waverley about half an hour late.
These two nights went ok regarding the split at Waverley , a big test will come this week with the Fort William portion running again.Same time available but a much more complex shunt!
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,600
These two nights went ok regarding the split at Waverley , a big test will come this week with the Fort William portion running again.Same time available but a much more complex shunt!
Yup ... what's the first night that happens?
 

theironroad

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2014
Messages
3,692
Location
London
I'm sure it's been brought up before, but does anyone know off hand the capacity of standard class 'classic' berths on the lowlander?

Is there an overall reduction ?

Iirc, all cabins on the old stock were identical and as such were adapted depending on demand. I.e. a first class sleeper would mean upper berth stowed away whereas as a standard solo was both berths down but with solo use and sharing was , well sharing.

With the new cally double and club berths being purpose built , these will never be available vice a classic berth, so a massive loss of flexibility.

I realise that a lot of people are trying out the new service for the first time and newer, smarter accom will be an attraction also, but it seems very hard to get classic berths on then lowlander at short notice, whereas in the past it would often be possible except on very busy days.

Will it all settle down, or is this the new reality? I appreciate that serco would love 100% advanced booked occupancy every night, but not great for those with short notice needs...
 

MrEd

Member
Joined
13 Jan 2019
Messages
587
I'm sure it's been brought up before, but does anyone know off hand the capacity of standard class 'classic' berths on the lowlander?

Is there an overall reduction ?

Iirc, all cabins on the old stock were identical and as such were adapted depending on demand. I.e. a first class sleeper would mean upper berth stowed away whereas as a standard solo was both berths down but with solo use and sharing was , well sharing.

With the new cally double and club berths being purpose built , these will never be available vice a classic berth, so a massive loss of flexibility.

I realise that a lot of people are trying out the new service for the first time and newer, smarter accom will be an attraction also, but it seems very hard to get classic berths on then lowlander at short notice, whereas in the past it would often be possible except on very busy days.

Will it all settle down, or is this the new reality? I appreciate that serco would love 100% advanced booked occupancy every night, but not great for those with short notice needs...

I’m afraid that in practice, the cabins on the old stock were not adapted depending on demand. Typically, an Inverness/Edinburgh/Glasgow portion would have three coaches in which all rooms were made up as first class solo rooms with the upper bunk folded away (J/K/L), and three coaches in which all rooms were made up as standard class twin rooms with both bunks folded down (M/N/P). The top bunks could only be raised and lowered in depots, as the mattresses had to be stored safely (there was nowhere to do this on the train, and the bunk could not be folded up if the mattress was still there). So in practice, in First Group and early Serco days, with the Mk3s, once all of M, N and P were full, there was no more standard class accommodation (even if first class cabins were still left in J, K and L); it was either first class or nothing. Later (Jan 2018 onwards) each of the Mk3 coaches was arranged as a composite, with six first class solo and six standard twin cabins (with 1-6 permanently arranged as first class, and 7-12 permanently arranged as standard); the overall ratio of first class to standard class cabins remained the same.

The problem with the Mk5s is that there are only four classic/standard cabins in each coach (7-10) as opposed to six on the old stock (7-12). This is because of the extra space taken up by the first/club en-suites. This means that the capacity in standard/classic in each portion has been reduced from 36 cabins to 24 cabins; the fact that the cabins can no longer be shared with a stranger has reduced capacity even further, because once one classic cabin is booked for a solo traveller, it cannot be used by a second passenger. When sharing with a stranger was permissible on the Mk3s, there were potentially 72 standard class beds available in an Inverness/Glasgow/Edinburgh portion. Now there are potentially just 48 beds, but around 10-12 of these will remain empty in any journey because the cabins can no longer be shared with a stranger. So yes, classic will book up very, very fast on all trains (not helped by the fact that the First Class fares, even at the lowest advance tiers, are very expensive). Also, the first class cabins are not interconnecting because of the space needed for the en-suites, so family groups will invariably prefer the classic cabins.

When I was booking my ticket for the northbound Highlander on 5th November, I did in fact notice that first was £13 cheaper than classic/standard. This can happen when there is very high demand for standard but less demand for first, so is worth bearing in mind.

Despite the negative press, the service, as far as I can see, seems to be getting busier all the time and a lot more difficult to book at short notice, even on weekdays in autumn... perhaps this is the Mk5 ‘novelty factor’ at the moment but I will be interested to see what loadings are like in Jan/Feb/Mar (the quiet winter months when the novelty has worn off), and whether it gets any easier to book a berth at short notice then.
 

MrEd

Member
Joined
13 Jan 2019
Messages
587
Thanks @MrEd for a very informative and useful post :D

Caledonian Sleeper could use it for a leaflet called 'Why you can't get Bargain Berths'!

That’s so true; the fare increases certainly aren’t putting punters off judging by how many berths are booked up in the Inverness and Fort William sections on a number of nights in November. I would say that certainly the Inverness service, and possibly the Fort William too at weekends (on a couple of weekends in November and December it appears to be sold out or nearly sold out already) is considerably better patronised now than it ever was in the days of bargain berths, so there’s no incentive for their reintroduction on those routes at least. Aberdeen might be a different story, but maybe the Mk5s will come to attract more people to that service too?
 

PG

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
2,809
Location
at the end of the high and low roads
Aberdeen might be a different story, but maybe the Mk5s will come to attract more people to that service too?
Given the dire state of the economy in Aberdeen just now, reflected in the housing market where you can buy or rent 2 and sometimes 3 beds for what used to just get you 1 bed, I think its going to be a while before that portion reaches the loadings that the other two achieve.
 

RLBH

Member
Joined
17 May 2018
Messages
962
That’s so true; the fare increases certainly aren’t putting punters off judging by how many berths are booked up in the Inverness and Fort William sections on a number of nights in November. I would say that certainly the Inverness service, and possibly the Fort William too at weekends (on a couple of weekends in November and December it appears to be sold out or nearly sold out already) is considerably better patronised now than it ever was in the days of bargain berths, so there’s no incentive for their reintroduction on those routes at least. Aberdeen might be a different story, but maybe the Mk5s will come to attract more people to that service too?
Dare I suggest that for all that this forum, and residents of the Highlands, have objected to turning the sleeper from a vital service connecting Scotland to London into a rolling hotel for tourists, Serco and Transport Scotland might have got it right? If they're filling the train with passengers on expensive tickets, that's a heck of a change from transporting fresh air or selling cheap tickets on a Mark 3.
 

33Hz

Member
Joined
2 Dec 2010
Messages
513
Also, the first class cabins are not interconnecting because of the space needed for the en-suites, so family groups will invariably prefer the classic cabins.

This is an unfortunate overlooked aspect of the design. For example, the OeBB Nightjet single deck stock has interleaved en-suite and normal rooms with an interconnecting door, so that a family of 4 can share a bathroom.
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,189
Location
Wittersham Kent
That’s so true; the fare increases certainly aren’t putting punters off judging by how many berths are booked up in the Inverness and Fort William sections on a number of nights in November. I would say that certainly the Inverness service, and possibly the Fort William too at weekends (on a couple of weekends in November and December it appears to be sold out or nearly sold out already) is considerably better patronised now than it ever was in the days of bargain berths, so there’s no incentive for their reintroduction on those routes at least. Aberdeen might be a different story, but maybe the Mk5s will come to attract more people to that service too?
If Baldricks report of the Glasgow portion full on a Wednesday night in October is a regular occurrence that suggests Serco etc have turned around a decline that started when the West Coast Modernisation was completed as well.
 

Chrism20

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2013
Messages
1,347
Given the dire state of the economy in Aberdeen just now, reflected in the housing market where you can buy or rent 2 and sometimes 3 beds for what used to just get you 1 bed, I think its going to be a while before that portion reaches the loadings that the other two achieve.

I wouldn’t bet on that. Richard Clinnick of Rail posted on a Facebook group yesterday he had been speaking to Ryan Flaherty at the end of last week and that they had recently enjoyed their best month ever with only 39 beds unsold in the entire month. Even if all 39 of those were on the Aberdeen portion which is unlikely it’s still ran at around 95% occupancy which is pretty impressive given all the bad press they have had recently.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
With the new cally double and club berths being purpose built , these will never be available vice a classic berth, so a massive loss of flexibility.

They could, if they saw it as sensible, offer free upgrades to some no doubt very happy people.

Will it all settle down, or is this the new reality? I appreciate that serco would love 100% advanced booked occupancy every night, but not great for those with short notice needs...

Be careful those who suggest compulsory reservations for day trains... :)
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
This is an unfortunate overlooked aspect of the design. For example, the OeBB Nightjet single deck stock has interleaved en-suite and normal rooms with an interconnecting door, so that a family of 4 can share a bathroom.

For families the ultimate would probably be to have classic and club adjoining - you only really need one bog, not two.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
If Baldricks report of the Glasgow portion full on a Wednesday night in October is a regular occurrence that suggests Serco etc have turned around a decline that started when the West Coast Modernisation was completed as well.

Or that views on air travel are changing in the light of climate change and this just happens to coincide with Serco's tenure? The sleeper seems to be making a comeback on the mainland too, just when we thought it was a dead duck.
 

Scotrail84

Established Member
Joined
5 Jul 2010
Messages
2,360
If Baldricks report of the Glasgow portion full on a Wednesday night in October is a regular occurrence that suggests Serco etc have turned around a decline that started when the West Coast Modernisation was completed as well.


Its not.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,768
Location
Herts
For families the ultimate would probably be to have classic and club adjoining - you only really need one bog, not two.

Presumably well heeled families. Hang on - there is a micro market of the shooting and fishing kind which may be able to afford this , as opposed to the great mass of "ordinary, hard working familes" ...
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,600
I have no idea. I wrote this as an observation - it picked up a 15 minute delay, and then another larger delay at Preston. I don't make any pretense at identifying the cause. I made the same point again because someone said 15 minutes is recoverable and I highlighted that it ran with a 15 minute delay for a good several hundred miles, rather disproving the point. I do accept that in the old days it would have had a chance at making that up south of Preston, but no longer with slower locos.
Returning to this... last night's highlander would suggest that 15 minutes is recoverable - it made up a 35 minute delay between Edinburgh and Euston - and I note that the timings have more slack on a sunday night than other nights, but it did leave Edinburgh about 15 minutes later than the 'normal' time and still manage to arrive on time.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G62303/2019/10/13/advanced
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,600
As for last night's first three-way split - looks like the Inverness portion got away about 15 minutes late, the Aberdeen portion got away on time, and the Fort William portion about half an hour late. Nonetheless it looks like all three portions on track to arrive at their destinations near enough on time.
 

theironroad

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2014
Messages
3,692
Location
London
I’m afraid that in practice, the cabins on the old stock were not adapted depending on demand. Typically, an Inverness/Edinburgh/Glasgow portion would have three coaches in which all rooms were made up as first class solo rooms with the upper bunk folded away (J/K/L), and three coaches in which all rooms were made up as standard class twin rooms with both bunks folded down (M/N/P). The top bunks could only be raised and lowered in depots, as the mattresses had to be stored safely (there was nowhere to do this on the train, and the bunk could not be folded up if the mattress was still there). So in practice, in First Group and early Serco days, with the Mk3s, once all of M, N and P were full, there was no more standard class accommodation (even if first class cabins were still left in J, K and L); it was either first class or nothing. Later (Jan 2018 onwards) each of the Mk3 coaches was arranged as a composite, with six first class solo and six standard twin cabins (with 1-6 permanently arranged as first class, and 7-12 permanently arranged as standard); the overall ratio of first class to standard class cabins remained the same.

The problem with the Mk5s is that there are only four classic/standard cabins in each coach (7-10) as opposed to six on the old stock (7-12). This is because of the extra space taken up by the first/club en-suites. This means that the capacity in standard/classic in each portion has been reduced from 36 cabins to 24 cabins; the fact that the cabins can no longer be shared with a stranger has reduced capacity even further, because once one classic cabin is booked for a solo traveller, it cannot be used by a second passenger. When sharing with a stranger was permissible on the Mk3s, there were potentially 72 standard class beds available in an Inverness/Glasgow/Edinburgh portion. Now there are potentially just 48 beds, but around 10-12 of these will remain empty in any journey because the cabins can no longer be shared with a stranger. So yes, classic will book up very, very fast on all trains (not helped by the fact that the First Class fares, even at the lowest advance tiers, are very expensive). Also, the first class cabins are not interconnecting because of the space needed for the en-suites, so family groups will invariably prefer the classic cabins.

When I was booking my ticket for the northbound Highlander on 5th November, I did in fact notice that first was £13 cheaper than classic/standard. This can happen when there is very high demand for standard but less demand for first, so is worth bearing in mind.

Despite the negative press, the service, as far as I can see, seems to be getting busier all the time and a lot more difficult to book at short notice, even on weekdays in autumn... perhaps this is the Mk5 ‘novelty factor’ at the moment but I will be interested to see what loadings are like in Jan/Feb/Mar (the quiet winter months when the novelty has worn off), and whether it gets any easier to book a berth at short notice then.

Many thanks, very informative. I hadn't realised that cabin conversion had to be done in the depot and also confirmation that last minute travel is becoming harder.

I've been trying to find a classic berth going southbound on Tuesday for the last few days from glasgos, Edinburgh, dalmuir, Stirling and inverkeithing and were sold out at last look.
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
Dare I suggest that for all that this forum, and residents of the Highlands, have objected to turning the sleeper from a vital service connecting Scotland to London into a rolling hotel for tourists, Serco and Transport Scotland might have got it right? If they're filling the train with passengers on expensive tickets, that's a heck of a change from transporting fresh air or selling cheap tickets on a Mark 3.
What happens to those using cheap tickets as a vital service, though? Does TS prefer profit to public service too much? Is the balance correct?
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,600
The seats are still quite cheap?
Spoke to a friend (non rail enthusiast) at the weekend, who quite often uses the sleeper, and her comment was similar to what many have said on here, which is that the new seats are considerably less comfortable than the old ones. (Haven't tried them myself yet)
 

Top