Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Doesn't the Barrow now run via Wigan? It urgently needs a fast Wigan EMU in front of it and some judicious "u" and "s" in the timetable.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Northern Class 195: Initial Diagrams
- Thread starter mikemcniven
- Start date
- Status
Doesn't the Barrow now run via Wigan? It urgently needs a fast Wigan EMU in front of it and some judicious "u" and "s" in the timetable.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
td97
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Jul 2017
- Messages
- 1,299
Karl
On Moderation
Plausible. I was going to Edinburgh but fortunately wasn't booked on the direct service. Thanks to VT Preston to Edinburgh being delayed I had time to grab a Subway opposite whatever the shopping centre adjacent to the station is called. Very friendly service; I told the young guy serving where I was headed and he packed three cookies rather than one
The Fishergate Centre. Always handy whilst changing trains at Preston.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I love the way on a route which is almost "im Takt" that Northern love to throw in a load of exceptions
It seems reasonable to presume that the Barrow is routed via Bolton (with calls at Bolton and Chorley) for the purpose of taking pressure off the Blackpool, but it seems that it's a shade overdoing it.
What are things like when the 1634 doesn't operate?
It has had plenty of seats available from the Airport whenever I have used it - not sure about after Manchester but there's usually crowds at Piccadilly waiting for the various trains which are usually late.
WatcherZero
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 10,272
The presumably training runs through Wallgate over the last couple of weeks are driving people crazy as they are occurring in peak and replacing scheduled operational services which are just disappearing from PIDs making other services even more crowded.
Looks like the 1637 can end up pretty packed in this case, especially if the quick turnaround leads to a late start - eg on 13 September it picked up extended dwells at Piccadilly and Oxford Road and then skipped Deansgate, suggesting heavy overcrowding.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y61229/2019/09/13/advanced
I've created a new thread for 195 diagrams in order to make them more accessible.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-195-diagrams-valid-15-9-19-to-20-10-19.193088/
If you want to go directly to the Monday to Friday diagrams, they are here.
Saturday diagrams are here.
Sunday diagrams are here.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-195-diagrams-valid-15-9-19-to-20-10-19.193088/
If you want to go directly to the Monday to Friday diagrams, they are here.
Firstly, Monday to Friday diagrams, and here mikemcniven got us off to a great start (in post #1 of the '195: Initial Diagrams' thread) with the seven original diagrams - these were effective from 1/7/19, although in the early days 195 availability was poor.
One or two early errors were quickly corrected, leaving the above to prove virtually infallible. The only remaining errors I can find are:
- Circuit 2: Train reporting number 2X09 should read 2C09 (and we haven't bothered with reporting numbers since, anyway)
Circuit 5: 2143 Manchester Airport - Liverpool should read 2148 Manchester Airport - Liverpool
Note that 'Circuit 7' simply doubles up with 'Circuit 6' for one return trip in the morning, and one in the afternoon.
A further five diagrams became 195-operated from 12/8/19. I'll call them Diagrams 8-12. (I've included ECS movements).
Diagram 8
0457 Blackpool North CMD - Lancaster ECS
0559 Lancaster - Windermere
0643 Windermere - Oxenholme
0728 Oxenholme - Windermere
0755 Windermere - Oxenholme
0827 Oxenholme - Windermere
0851 Windermere - Oxenholme
0930 Oxenholme - Windermere
0956 Windermere - Manchester Airport
1229 Manchester Airport - Barrow
1507 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
1850 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
1855 Barrow - Preston
2036 Preston - Newton Heath T&RSMD ECS
Diagram 9
0702 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
0708 Barrow - Lancaster
0823 Lancaster - Barrow
0934 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
1135 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
1146 Barrow - Manchester Airport
1429 Manchester Airport - Windermere
1706 Windermere - Oxenholme
1742 Oxenholme - Windermere
1807 Windermere - Oxenholme
1829 Oxenholme - Windermere
1855 Windermere - Manchester Airport
2234 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North (via Bolton)
0029 Blackpool North - Blackpool North CMD ECS
Diagram 10
0449 Newton Heath T&RSMD - Manchester Airport ECS
0522 Manchester Airport - Barrow
0811 Barrow - Barrow via Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
0846 Barrow - Manchester Airport
1129 Manchester Airport - Windermere
1407 Windermere - Oxenholme
1438 Oxenholme - Windermere
1459 Windermere - Oxenholme
1532 Oxenholme - Windermere
1605 Windermere - Manchester Airport
1829 Manchester Airport - Barrow
2117 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
Diagram 11
0337 Liverpool - Manchester Airport
0551 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Rear Unit)
0709 Liverpool - Manchester Oxford Road (Front Unit)
0912 Manchester Oxford Road - Liverpool (Rear Unit)
1016 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Front Unit)
1150 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Rear Unit)
1316 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Front Unit)
1450 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Rear Unit)
1616 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Front Unit)
1750 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Rear Unit)
1915 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Front Unit)
2047 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Rear Unit)
2224 Liverpool - Manchester Airport
0017 Manchester Airport - Newton Heath T&RSMD ECS
Diagram 12
0507 Newton Heath T&RSMD - Manchester Airport ECS
0551 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Front Unit)
0709 Liverpool - Manchester Oxford Road (Rear Unit)
0912 Manchester Oxford Road - Liverpool (Front Unit)
1016 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Rear Unit)
1150 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Front Unit)
1316 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Rear Unit)
1450 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Front Unit)
1616 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Rear Unit)
1750 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Front Unit)
1916 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Rear Unit)
2047 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Front Unit)
Diagrams 11 and 12 are booked for 195/0s. If two 195/0s are not available then Diagram 11 will usually run with a single 195/0, or a single 195/1, and Diagram 12 will not operate.
At 2224 only the unit operating Diagram 11 departs Liverpool for Manchester Airport, the unit operating Diagram 12 remains in the platform at Lime Street ready to work the next morning's 0337 departure, (i.e. Diagram 11). This arrangement is thought to not apply on Friday nights/Saturday mornings.
(Q: On Friday night, is Diagram 12 scheduled to remain with Diagram 11 and finish at Newton Heath?)
Note that, if the above routine continues uninterrupted, each unit gets back to Newton Heath every other night.
Thanks are obviously due to mikemcniven for getting us off to such a good start. Additional information is mainly from information contained in 'Realtime Trains' and from personal observation, but additional information has been provided by NWR001, 156420, 37078xotTE, and others.
Saturday diagrams are here.
Now for Saturday diagrams. Here again, mikemcniven has got us off to a good start (in post #116 of the '195: Initial Diagrams' thread) with six of the originals, i.e. those effective from 6/7/19.
A few corrections are required, as follows.
Circuit 1: 1634 Manchester Airport to Barrow should read 1629 Manchester Airport to Barrow
Circuit 2: 1943 Barrow to Manchester Airport should have read 1934 Barrow to Manchester Airport - but see below
Circuit 5: 2143 Manchester Airport to Liverpool should read 2148 Manchester Airport to Liverpool
Circuit 6: 0613 Liverpool to Wilmslow should read 0613 Liverpool to Manchester Airport
Circuit 6: 0748 Wilmslow to Liverpool should read 0750 Manchester Airport to Liverpool
Circuit 6: 2129 Liverpool to Wilmslow should read 2129 Liverpool to Manchester Airport
Circuit 6: 2249 Wilmslow to Liverpool should read 2249 Manchester Airport to Liverpool
Other amendments are necessary by virtue of service changes.
Circuit 1: From 14/9/19 2210 Manchester Airport to Barrow becomes 2210 Manchester Airport to Preston
Circuit 2: The 1934 Barrow to Manchester Airport and 2210 return appear on both Circuit 1 and Circuit 2. It was intended that this journey should run as a double unit throughout - this generally hasn't happened but it has run as a double at least once. Circuit 2 therefore, should presumably now be regarded as finishing after completing the 1530 Manchester Airport - Barrow
Circuit 4: From 14/9/19 2044 Windermere to Oxenholme becomes 2043 Windermere to Lancaster, and all subsequent journeys on the diagram are cancelled. From Lancaster unit operates 2226 Lancaster - Barrow
The new 2210 Manchester Airport to Preston does have a bus connection for Lancaster, but not Barrow, apparently. The cancelled journeys on Circuit 4 all have bus replacements.
A seventh Saturday diagram went 195-operated at a very early date, probably from 6/7/19. This may have been a consequence of a late decision, it may have been realised that because Diagram 6 didn't need to be strengthened (unlike Mondays to Fridays) there would be a 195 available, therefore may as well use it. This additional diagram I'll call Diagram 7.
Diagram 7
0337 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
0551 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
0709 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Oxford Road
0912 Manchester Oxford Road - Liverpool Lime Street
1016 Liverpool Lime Street- Manchester Airport
1150 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
1316 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
1450 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
1616 Liverpool Lime Street- Manchester Airport
1750 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
1915 Liverpool Lime Street- Manchester Airport
2047 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
2224 Liverpool Lime Street- Manchester Airport
2344 Manchester Airport - Newton Heath T&RSMD ECS
From 7/7/19 all Saturday semi-fast journeys between Manchester Airport and Liverpool Lime Street were scheduled to be 195-operated, but there were three diagrams on the main Barrow/Windermere circuit which were still non-195. These went 195-operated from 17/8/19, I'll call them Diagrams 8-10.
Diagram 8
0457 Blackpool North CMD - Lancaster ECS
0559 Lancaster - Windermere
0643 Windermere - Oxenholme
0728 Oxenholme - Windermere
0755 Windermere - Oxenholme
0827 Oxenholme - Windermere
0851 Windermere - Oxenholme
0920 Oxenholme - Windermere
1008 Windermere - Manchester Airport
1229 Manchester Airport - Barrow
1507 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
1850 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
1903 Barrow - Preston
2036 Preston - Newton Heath T&RSMD ECS
Diagram 9
0702 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
0708 Barrow - Lancaster
0823 Lancaster - Barrow
0934 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
1135 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
1146 Barrow - Manchester Airport
1429 Manchester Airport - Windermere
1706 Windermere - Oxenholme
1736 Oxenholme - Windermere
1801 Windermere - Oxenholme
1829 Oxenholme - Windermere
1855 Windermere - Manchester Airport
2234 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North
0028 Blackpool North - Blackpool North CMD ECS
Diagram 10
0449 Newton Heath T&RSMD - Manchester Airport ECS
0522 Manchester Airport - Barrow
0811 Barrow - Barrow via Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
0846 Barrow - Manchester Airport
1129 Manchester Airport - Windermere
1407 Windermere - Oxenholme
1438 Oxenholme - Windermere
1459 Windermere - Oxenholme
1532 Oxenholme - Windermere
1605 Windermere - Manchester Airport
1829 Manchester Airport - Barrow
2117 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
After the changes of 12-18/8/19 all journeys to/from Windermere were scheduled to be 195-operated, as were all journeys to/from Barrow running south of Lancaster, apart from an afternoon NSu Preston - Carlisle journey. Apart from one return journey (NSu), and one single journey (Su), (listed above), all Barrow - Lancaster journeys (and the Preston-Carlisle) remain 156-operated.
Sunday diagrams are here.
Finally, the Sunday diagrams.
First of all, mikemcniven gave us three of the original diagrams (i.e. those effective from Sunday 7/7/19) in post #116 of the '195: Initial Diagrams' thread.
There are a couple of corrections to make to 'Circuit 1'. The 1851 journey ex-Barrow terminates at Preston, and the 2046 journey starts there. If 'Circuit 1' and 'Circuit 2' are both operating (a big 'if') then the unit operating 'Circuit 2' attaches at Preston to the rear of the unit operating 'Circuit 1'. Any passengers in the rear unit (i.e. those coming from south of Preston) are required to transfer to the front unit and the rear unit is locked out of use for the journey to Barrow.
There was a fourth diagram effective from the same date, or, at least, it was covered by a 195 on that day and has since proved to be just as much a 195 diagram as the other three. This was given by myself in post #197, from information contained in 'Realtime Trains' and personal observation - I've since added ECS movements. I'll call it Diagram 4.
Diagram 4
0832 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
0840 Barrow - Manchester Oxford Road*
1102 Manchester Oxford Road - Manchester Oxford Road via Trafford Park East Junction ECS
1153 Manchester Oxford Road - Windermere*
1358 Windermere - Oxenholme
1423 Oxenholme - Windermere
1449 Windermere - Oxenholme
1535 Oxenholme - Windermere
1606 Windermere - Manchester Airport
1833 Manchester Airport - Barrow
2123 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
*Prior to 15/9/19 these journeys continued to/started from Manchester Airport (1133 Airport to Windermere)
A further three Barrow/Windermere diagrams went 195-operated from 18/8/19, although one of those was covered by a 156 that day. All Sunday journeys venturing south of Lancaster were then scheduled to be 195-operated. I'll call them Diagrams 5-7.
Diagram 5
0719 Newton Heath T&RSMD - Manchester Piccadilly ECS
0736 Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport*
0833 Manchester Airport - Windermere
1055 Windermere - Oxenholme
1118 Oxenholme - Windermere
1140 Windermere - Oxenholme
1201 Oxenholme - Windermere
1223 Windermere - Oxenholme
1247 Oxenholme - Windermere
1308 Windermere - Manchester Airport
1533 Manchester Airport - Barrow
1822 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
* This journey added 15/9/19
Diagram 6
0739 Allerton Depot - Liverpool Lime Street ECS
0821 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
0935 Manchester Airport - Barrow
1210 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
1342 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
1347 Barrow - Manchester Airport
1633 Manchester Airport - Barrow
1947 Barrow - Manchester Airport
2239 Manchester Airport - Newton Heath T&RSMD ECS
or
2251 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
0012 Liverpool Lime Street - Allerton Depot ECS
(The above will probably vary week to week)
Diagram 7
1129 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
1137 Barrow - Manchester Airport
1433 Manchester Airport - Windermere
1709 Windermere - Oxenholme
1739 Oxenholme - Windermere
1800 Windermere - Oxenholme
1830 Oxenholme - Windermere
1901 Windermere - Manchester Airport
2125 Manchester Airport - Newton Heath T&RSMD ECS
When 195s were introduced to the North West they were not initially used on Liverpool to Manchester Airport diagrams on Sundays. The first diagram to go 195-operated did so with effect from 18/8/19. Actually, whether it constitutes one diagram or two is arguable, since I am assured that it is scheduled for a double 195/0 which is planned to split at one point (thereby making it two diagrams), however by virtue of the fact that the diagram has not yet been actually operated by a double 195/0 (a single 195/0 may have operated it, I'm not sure about that) I'll consider it a single diagram for now, and call it Diagram 8.
Diagram 8
0934 Newton Heath T&RSMD - Manchester Oxford Road ECS
1018 Manchester Oxford Road - Liverpool Lime Street
1116 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Oxford Road*
1217 Manchester Oxford Road - Manchester Oxford Road via Trafford Park East Junction ECS
1313 Manchester Oxford Road - Liverpool Lime Street*
1416 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
1551 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
1716 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
1851 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
2016 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
2151 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
Should then do 0337 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport (Monday to Friday Diagram 11)
* Prior to 15/9/19 these journeys continued to/started from Manchester Airport (1248 Airport to Liverpool)
The remaining diagrams on Liverpool - Manchester Airport have subsequently gone over to 195 operation, probably from 15/9/19. I'll call them Diagrams 9 & 10.
Diagram 9
0752 Newton Heath T&RSMD - Manchester Oxford Road ECS
0817 Manchester Oxford Road - Liverpool Lime Street
0916 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
1050 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
1216 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
1351 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
1516 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
1651 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
1816 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
1950 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
2119 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
2239 Manchester Airport - Newton Heath T&RSMD ECS
or
2251 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
0012 Liverpool Lime Street - Allerton Depot ECS
(The above will probably vary week to week)
Diagram 10
0945 Allerton Depot - Liverpool Lime Street ECS
1016 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
1151 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
1316 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
1451 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
1614 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
1751 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
1916 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
2051 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
2216 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport
2344 Manchester Airport - Newton Heath T&RSMD ECS
Last edited:
Brissle Girl
Established Member
- Joined
- 17 Jul 2018
- Messages
- 2,657
Thank you. That’s very helpful.
Do you have a source for this? A reliable source informs me that no passenger trains have been replaced by training runs.
One of the problems we found the new CIS is that when a train is cut short it was just getting rid of it from the screens, so in the case of Wigan Wallgate the Southports often become a terminating train it was just getting rid. Should be fixed shortly! If a 195 came through when a scheduled train was supposed to be on the platform its just coincidence and nothing more sinister. Dont think Northern could get away with doing a TPE.
WatcherZero
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 10,272
Only standing on the platform seeing the PID counting down to arrival, 195 turns up bang on scheduled time and goes through without stopping, service removed from PID with no delayed or cancelled and no audio announcements, personally experienced it three times in the last two to three weeks.
One time it replaced the 7:40 to Victoria, other it replaced the 7:50 to Alderley Edge, cant remember what it replaced the 3rd time. Might have been the 7:25.
Last edited:
Do you have examples of dates when these occurred?
I see that Northern's 'Journey Check' is currently reporting the 0613 Liverpool - Wilmslow and 0748 return as being formed of two carriages instead of three. Er, I thought they were diagrammed for six carriages? The other two Liverpool semi-fasts are also short-formed, one two carriages instead of three and the other one three carriages instead of four. At least one of the CLC stoppers is also short-formed. Nothing changes, does it?
EDIT: It's actually two CLC stoppers which are coming up as short-formed, but only until after the AM peak, which seems strange.
EDIT: It's actually two CLC stoppers which are coming up as short-formed, but only until after the AM peak, which seems strange.
Last edited:
156420
Member
Just before we get far too ahead of ourselves here, this is definitely not the case, and is purely coincidence! Even though it doesn’t look good.
There have been 195 ECS paths at similar times to the passenger trains (usually booked just ahead or behind) But they are definitely not replacing service trains.
Thanks, yes that is what my sources say too!
In the event, 'Journey Check' did ultimately get updated to show the two (consecutive, as it happens) CLC stopper diagrams being short-formed, two carriages instead of four.
As happened with the 0613/0748, the 1516 Liverpool - Airport and 1645 return are showing as short-formed, two carriages instead of three, but the last we heard the diagrammed formation was six carriages.
Assuming all sets operating in the asserted formations, that effectively means there is a shortage of two 195/1s, in addition to the two kept by for scheduled maintenance. Mind you, if they're turning up at Nottingham, it's not surprising they're unavailable for service. (See '195: Construction & Updates' thread, posts 3064 & 3069.)
Last edited:
I think the travelling public would take the view, with considerable justification, that TOCs ought to maintain a level of staffing sufficient to not only maintain the advertised train service, but to accommodate training needs as well. So if their train is cancelled, but they see another on training duties, they naturally take the view that training is being done at the expense of maintaining the service, and, strictly speaking, they'd be right. Training even has the potential to be flexible, i.e. it is something which usually needs to be done sooner or later, but doesn't always have to be done today.
Then there's the trains themselves. 195s are being used on training runs when there are insufficient available for service. (Two 195/1s short today, for instance). We even now have the situation of 195s fully approved for service being used on non-passenger work.
Last edited:
northernchris
Established Member
- Joined
- 24 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 1,509
Crew need to be trained on 195s though and presumably Northern have a training plan which will result in the required numbers being trained ready for the introduction on Calder Valley services. Delaying training could either delay their introduction or result in cancellations if there is a shortfall in trained crew. Hopefully the situation will improve as more 195s become available for passenger use
As an aside, LNER did remove a handful of Leeds - Kings Cross services and used the paths between Leeds and Doncaster for training
'Journey Check' is showing today's 0551 Airport - Liverpool, 0709 Liverpool - Oxford Road, and 0912 Oxford Road - Liverpool as being formed of two carriages instead of four. The diagrammed formation is a double 195/0 - could someone report what actually turns up?
The 0613 Liverpool - Wilmslow and 0748 return are showing as running as scheduled, implying a double 195/1. Here again, could someone report what actually turns up? Thanks in advance.
The 0613 Liverpool - Wilmslow and 0748 return are showing as running as scheduled, implying a double 195/1. Here again, could someone report what actually turns up? Thanks in advance.
You haven't really challenged anything I've said.
There are more than sufficient available now.
195007
It's not unknown for the tracking to confuse trains. I once witnessed a westbound freight stop at Eccles to change drivers - you may well wonder why it changed drivers at Eccles, I certainly did! This took 2-3 minutes and delayed the following Liverpool stopper, the stopper disappeared off the PIDs when the freight departed, presumably because the tracking thought it was the stopper.
On what, the 0551?
2 Carriage today which apparently skipped Birchwood and Irlam. It was also a 2 carriage service on the 17:13 from MCO to Liverpool yesterday, as you can imagine, most of the passengers were left on the platform. It's a shambles at the moment. Looks like I'm going back to EMR as my only choice until Northern sort themselves out.
It was indeed, I was on this train. Was expecting a 6 coach train - when a two-car turned up it was a bit of a shock. Got off at Piccadilly and it was rammed after passengers boarded there. Imagine no one got on at Oxford Road.
Correct, I ended up on the stopper which was equally packed. It does feel like Northern have ordered the wrong mix of train set lengths as it's so hit and miss as to what length train turns up
- Status