Brissle Girl
Established Member
- Joined
- 17 Jul 2018
- Messages
- 2,616
They'll be cheering in the streets of Hawick the day it's extended there. Maybe it could be called the McLaren extension?
Hawick seems feasible as it would deliver regeneration and political benefits. Carlisle still seems pie in the sky.
The line would pass through Melrose, which has one of the largest tourist attractions in the area, Melrose Abbey. It could be argued that a shortcoming of the current line is that it stops just short of Melrose. eg if you put in to the Transport Scotland journey planner a journey from Edinburgh to the Abbey, it includes a 21 min wait for a bus, and then a 9 min journey. You could probably walk it in that half an hour, but pyschologically it will put people off using public transport. 1 hr 5 mins by train would sound much better.
That’s why I included political considerations.Except Hawick will probably cost at least £ 250m to serve a population of 15,000 - and the intermediate places between Tweedbank and Hawick are very small as well.
I can't see it passing any sensible benefits case.
Add in the railway line goes a long way round to get to Hawick i.e. via St Boswells, whereas Hawick - Tweedbank as the crow flies is shorter via the A7.
That’s why I included political considerations.
An SNP vanity project extending a Labour/Libdem vanity project - oh well at least everybody is getting their oar in!Even political considerations won't make that one wash its face. If it happened it would be an SNP vanity project, nothing more - it's a bigger waste of money than HS2 and that's saying something.
He he, the original Waverley line was still operating then...The MTU (Mercedes) engine in the Turbostars and CAF DMUs actually dates back to 1968
I think its a bit unfair to call the current Borders Railway a vanity project. Don't get me wrong, most folk know the railway was a sweetener to get the Lib Dems on board with a coalition with Labour back in the early days of the Parliament. But has it not delivered any major benefits for those around the Gala area? My impressions were that it had, although if folk can provide evidence that it hasn't delivered, I'd be interested to read about it.An SNP vanity project extending a Labour/Libdem vanity project - oh well at least everybody is getting their oar in!
I think its a bit unfair to call the current Borders Railway a vanity project. Don't get me wrong, most folk know the railway was a sweetener to get the Lib Dems on board with a coalition with Labour back in the early days of the Parliament. But has it not delivered any major benefits for those around the Gala area? My impressions were that it had, although if folk can provide evidence that it hasn't delivered, I'd be interested to read about it.
It provides a service to those living in the Borders that they have not had for 50 years and it is appreciated. It has also made it easier for tourists to visit. I used the line regularly to visit Gala from the south before closure. I haven't used the Borders bus once since. Who wants to suffer a bus journey of that length when the train is available. Now I visit my friend again in Galabank often since the railway reopened.That's an awful lot of money to spend, for a line that runs through the middle of nowhere that nobody would use.
Now it’s built I doubt that it’s the biggest loss maker in the ScotRail area.
Clearly it isn’t. However spending a several hundred million pounds of public money up front, to then require the continued spend of (probably) a couple of million a year more public money in perpetuity, to benefit a fraction of the nation’s population, doesn’t feel like the best way to spend that public money to benefit Scotland overall.
Not sure every £1 spent by government has to be judged on whether it benefits the entire country. The Borders Railway is by its nature a regional project to benefit SE Scotland, but that doesn't devalue it in anyway just because someone in Glasgow doesn't get a direct benefit. And if the railway helps the economy of the Borders to grow, then that can help contribute to overall economic output too - the money spent here may well reap a net return.
The Borders Railway has been a big success - actually a victim of its own success at times as passenger numbers have far exceeded expectations. It has also taken traffic off the A7 which was a big barrier to economic growth and connectivity in the Borders. And remember it isn't just the towns directly served by the railway that benefit - nearby Melrose and Newton St Boswells will also benefit through ppl choosing to drive to Tweedbank or get the bus to Galashiels to meet the train.
What I meant was that for the amount of money spent, both up front and on an ongoing basis, there would likely be more benefits, to more people, if it was spent elsewhere in Scotland on other projects, and therefore the other projects should be afforded priority.
As an aside passenger numbers have not far exceeded expectations. They are just about on target. It is true that there are more coming from Tweedbank / Gala than expected, but this is offset by fewer coming from the Lothian stations.
I think its a bit unfair to call the current Borders Railway a vanity project. Don't get me wrong, most folk know the railway was a sweetener to get the Lib Dems on board with a coalition with Labour back in the early days of the Parliament. But has it not delivered any major benefits for those around the Gala area? My impressions were that it had, although if folk can provide evidence that it hasn't delivered, I'd be interested to read about it.
There is a legitimate argument that the line should never have closed in the first place - that may be true - but that doesn't equate to a justification to reopen it.
The Borders Railway has been a big success - actually a victim of its own success at times as passenger numbers have far exceeded expectations. It has also taken traffic off the A7 which was a big barrier to economic growth and connectivity in the Borders. And remember it isn't just the towns directly served by the railway that benefit - nearby Melrose and Newton St Boswells will also benefit through ppl choosing to drive to Tweedbank or get the bus to Galashiels to meet the train.
What would have been the benchmark though?
It was built for political reasons rather than having a better business case than the alternative lines (say, Renfrew, Leven, Peterhead) - it was the price Labour paid for the LibDems going into coalition with them - so the passenger numbers weren't a prime concern - the expected passenger numbers weren't the reason for building the line - it wasn't like they'd done a long study into it - it was more a case of "we'll support you if you build a railway into an area with high LibDem votes so that we can represent our voters".
And do the underwhelming passenger numbers at Midlothian stations matter, or just the Borders stations that have been better than expected?
Do we consider the delays and the significantly increased budget (and the de-speccing) when assessing how big a success it was?
The fact that it's taken some traffic off the parallel road should be the absolute bare-minimum for a new railway - and the "motorists from further afield can use Tweedbank as a railhead" argument would equally work if they'd just built the line as far as Gorebridge (which they could have done much sooner/ cheaper/ simpler, but the legislation meant that they were forbidden from a partial re-opening before the whole line was ready).
I'm all for celebrating successes but we have to be honest about what they are, what the expectations were, what wouldn't be enough to qualify as a "success". For example, I could say that a line was a "success" if it was able to run without operational subsidy (i.e. forget about the construction costs, but let's at least make sure that the line is busy enough to run without future subsidy). Or maybe you have your own definition.
Indeed. Given a population of 14,000 in Hawick (at the last census) and assuming a cost of £1-200m (as a very rough guess) it would cost at least £10,000 for every man, woman and child in Hawick to extend the railway there. How many would rather just be given the cash?
As another constituent of Ms Grahame's I would have to say that she is a very effective constituency MSP. It's also necessary to look at the politics which lurk behind her statement at the CBR AGM. She would have been well aware of this recent report link to Border Telegraph report. Safe in the knowledge that the failure to extend to Carlisle can be blamed on Westminster and the numpty local tory MP John Lamont, Ms Grahame is giving the scheme enthusiastic backing. Lamont, meanwhile, is also enthusiastically backing it, despite having been opposed to building Edinburgh - Tweedbank.
It's also been reported locally (sorry, I don't have a link) that CBR are campaigning for electrification of the existing line. They also want about a mile of double track installed through Eskbank, which would need a second platform (presumably double between Esk and Hardengreen viaducts) and a bay platform at Gorebridge. Together with the planned improvements between Portobello and Niddrie South junctions they say this would allow a half-hourly all stations stopper from Gorebridge taking 24 mins and a half hourly Tweedbank service stopping at Gala, Stow, Gorebridge and Newcraighall taking 43 minutes.
So for a family of 4, you could probably build them a new house in Carlisle or Edinburgh, & not then have to subsidise the running costs forever more.
Hawick seems to be a local place for local people. There is that lottery winning couple who live there. They could have moved to anywhere in the world...
Saying that, a rail link might encourage developers to build more housing in and around Hawick, and open up it up as a commuter town. A rail link to Newtown St Boswells might work too. I know a couple of people who work, or worked, for Scottish Borders Council. They lived in outer Edinburgh and drove there every day, weather permitting.
If they won the lottery they can pay for the rail link !