Class 710 LO

[swt_passenger]

I travelled on 258 earlier this week and yes the seats are hard but no different to most new stock these days. My understanding is that the specification for most new stock is developed by the Government so its like buying a car you can have the basic model or a deluxe model with varieties inbetween. It apparently does not cost too much for better seats but taken over a large fleet it obviously adds up. Talking to a driver on the Goblin line he was praising the new units saying they were a pleasure to operate. However I did notice a number of door seals flapping in the breeze!

You can’t really blame the government, the 710s are 100% TfL. But in any case, apart from a couple of high profile orders, ie GWR and ECML IEP, and Thameslink 700s, I don’t believe most new stock interiors actually are specified by DfT...

 

[hwl]

I travelled on 258 earlier this week and yes the seats are hard but no different to most new stock these days. My understanding is that the specification for most new stock is developed by the Government so its like buying a car you can have the basic model or a deluxe model with varieties inbetween. It apparently does not cost too much for better seats but taken over a large fleet it obviously adds up. Talking to a driver on the Goblin line he was praising the new units saying they were a pleasure to operate. However I did notice a number of door seals flapping in the breeze!

Except these were ordered by TfL!
The fires safety rules are the big one for seat cushion firmness with the environment post Grenfell pushing in the direction of stricter interpretation of any existing regulations.

 

[Mikey C]

Did my first Euston to Bushey 710 trip tonight (710 267). Sad to say that after 12 minute late start due to door problems, the hard seats proved the point, that these trains are not as comfortable as the ones they are to replace. After 501s, 313s, 378s - it looks like the last fleet I will be regularly using are a bit of a disappointment.

Puzzled why you consider the 710s to be a downgrade on the 378s, to me the seating is much the same.

As for the 313s, the original BR seating in them was pretty basic and uncomfortable too!

 

[Lukeo]

Puzzled why you consider the 710s to be a downgrade on the 378s, to me the seating is much the same.

There’s no fabric on the armrests, something which the 378s and the more recent s-stock have.

 

[FOH]

There’s no fabric on the armrests, something which the 378s and the more recent s-stock have.

378 refurbs have ditched the fabric.

 

[BlyRF]

Not that I care much about the seat and comfort of any train, but have there been anymore reported runs on the Watford dc line and any news on the testing of coupling of sets for the west Anglia lines?

 

[Ibex]

Not that I care much about the seat and comfort of any train, but have there been anymore reported runs on the Watford dc line and any news on the testing of coupling of sets for the west Anglia lines?

There's three diagrams per day on the DC at the moment.

06:29 2C05 Watford Junction-Euston
07:27 2D92 Euston-Watford Junction
08:29 2C13 Watford Junction-Euston
09:28 2D84 Euston-Watford Junction
16:31 2C45 Watford Junction-Euston
17:27 2D52 Euston-Watford Junction
18:31 2C53 Watford Junction-Euston
19:27 2D44 Euston-Watford Junction
20:31 2C61 Watford Junction-Euston
21:28 2D36 Euston-Willesden Jn

06:34 2C03 Willesden Jn- Euston
06:58 2D94 Euston-Watford Junction
07:59 2C11 Watford Junction-Euston
08:58 2D86 Euston-Watford Junction
10:01 2C19 Watford Junction-Euston
10:58 2D78 Euston-Watford Junction
12:01 2C27 Watford Junction-Euston
12:58 2D70 Euston-Watford Junction
14:01 2C35 Watford Junction-Euston
14:58 2D62 Euston-Watford Junction
16:01 2C43 Watford Junction-Euston
16:57 2D54 Euston-Watford Junction
18:01 2C51 Watford Junction-Euston
18:57 2D46 Euston-Watford Junction
20:01 2C59 Watford Junction-Euston
20:57 2D38 Euston-Watford Junction
22:01 2C67 Watford Junction-Euston
22:57 2D30 Euston-Willesden Jn

06:04 2C01 Willesden Jn - Euston
06:28 2D96 Euston - Watford Junction
07:29 2C09 Watford Junction - Euston
08:28 2D88 Euston-Watford Junction
09:31 2C17 Watford Junction-Euston
10:28 2D78 Euston-Watford Junction
11:31 2C25 Watford Junction-Euston
12:28 2D72 Euston-Watford Junction
13:31 2C33 Watford Junction-Euston
14:28 2D64 Euston-Watford Junction
15:31 2C41 Watford Junction-Euston
16:27 2D56 Euston-Watford Junction
17:31 2C49 Watford Junction-Euston
18:27 2D48 Euston-Watford Junction
19:31 2C57 Watford Junction-Euston
21:27 2D40 Euston-Watford Junction
21:31 2C65 Watford Junction-Euston
22:27 2D32 Euston-Watford Junction

 

[Mordac]

How many diagrams on the DC are there in total?

 

[swt_passenger]

How many diagrams on the DC are there in total?

Eight.

 

[greatkingrat]

Should be a 4th 710 diagram on the DC next week.

 

[Mikey C]

Took one of these on the Watford DC today. A big improvement on the 378s, so nice to be able to sit without worrying about banging by head on a window hopper frame or destination display!

The plug doors are nice and fast too, just as fast as the sliding doors on the 378s and 700s

 

[samuelmorris]

Took one of these on the Watford DC today. A big improvement on the 378s, so nice to be able to sit without worrying about banging by head on a window hopper frame or destination display!

The plug doors are nice and fast too, just as fast as the sliding doors on the 378s and 700s

I disagree about that, but they are fast enough for the job at least, unlike those on Desiro UK units.

 

[Lukeo]

There's three diagrams per day on the DC at the moment.

06:29 2C05 Watford Junction-Euston
07:27 2D92 Euston-Watford Junction
08:29 2C13 Watford Junction-Euston
09:28 2D84 Euston-Watford Junction
16:31 2C45 Watford Junction-Euston
17:27 2D52 Euston-Watford Junction
18:31 2C53 Watford Junction-Euston
19:27 2D44 Euston-Watford Junction
20:31 2C61 Watford Junction-Euston
21:28 2D36 Euston-Willesden Jn

06:34 2C03 Willesden Jn- Euston
06:58 2D94 Euston-Watford Junction
07:59 2C11 Watford Junction-Euston
08:58 2D86 Euston-Watford Junction
10:01 2C19 Watford Junction-Euston
10:58 2D78 Euston-Watford Junction
12:01 2C27 Watford Junction-Euston
12:58 2D70 Euston-Watford Junction
14:01 2C35 Watford Junction-Euston
14:58 2D62 Euston-Watford Junction
16:01 2C43 Watford Junction-Euston
16:57 2D54 Euston-Watford Junction
18:01 2C51 Watford Junction-Euston
18:57 2D46 Euston-Watford Junction
20:01 2C59 Watford Junction-Euston
20:57 2D38 Euston-Watford Junction
22:01 2C67 Watford Junction-Euston
22:57 2D30 Euston-Willesden Jn

06:04 2C01 Willesden Jn - Euston
06:28 2D96 Euston - Watford Junction
07:29 2C09 Watford Junction - Euston
08:28 2D88 Euston-Watford Junction
09:31 2C17 Watford Junction-Euston
10:28 2D78 Euston-Watford Junction
11:31 2C25 Watford Junction-Euston
12:28 2D72 Euston-Watford Junction
13:31 2C33 Watford Junction-Euston
14:28 2D64 Euston-Watford Junction
15:31 2C41 Watford Junction-Euston
16:27 2D56 Euston-Watford Junction
17:31 2C49 Watford Junction-Euston
18:27 2D48 Euston-Watford Junction
19:31 2C57 Watford Junction-Euston
21:27 2D40 Euston-Watford Junction
21:31 2C65 Watford Junction-Euston
22:27 2D32 Euston-Watford Junction

Wait is this 100% the 710s are always on these same diagrams? Previously someone said they’re on that first one, but the other two vary. Any news on the 4th train?

 

[greatkingrat]

An AC-only class 710/1 unit is due to enter service on the Goblin from Monday.

 

[sjoh]

Is this in any way related to the 710 roll out on the WA lines?
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O52189/2019-10-29/detailed

 

[Goldfish62]

I disagree about that, but they are fast enough for the job at least, unlike those on Desiro UK units.

I will never understand how the doors on the Desiro UK were ever considered acceptable in terms of speed, even in the days when passenger numbers were much lower.

 

[samuelmorris]

I will never understand how the doors on the Desiro UK were ever considered acceptable in terms of speed, even in the days when passenger numbers were much lower.

The pressurised doors on 395s aren't really any better in that regard.

 

[hwl]

I disagree about that, but they are fast enough for the job at least, unlike those on Desiro UK units.

With features like ABDO rolled out then aventra overall door open timing will come down a bit more in reality (at SWR).

I'm beginning to suspect that the Desiro doors would need a mid life re-engineer as the S54 will have run out the next time SW and LNW franchsies are retendered giving an opening for new stock to be brought in.

 

[samuelmorris]

That's probably for a separate thread, but what is meant by S54?

It's not really release times that are the issue, but the actual operation time - as per the Desiro UK comment. They don't operate as fast as the sliding doors used on 378s and 700s, but they aren't too bad so probably won't have too much of an impact on dwell times. Certainly in SWR land they will probably be an improvement over 450s, but on LO it's difficult to say what (if any) impact it might have.

Edit: Just timed them from video footage, they're both roughly 5.2-5.4s each, so there's nothing in it - the faster door operation on 378s is negated by a longer delay after the alarm sounds.

 

[rebmcr]

ABDO

?....

 

[hwl]

That's probably for a separate thread, but what is meant by S54?

It's not really release times that are the issue, but the actual operation time - as per the Desiro UK comment. They don't operate as fast as the sliding doors used on 378s and 700s, but they aren't too bad so probably won't have too much of an impact on dwell times. Certainly in SWR land they will probably be an improvement over 450s, but on LO it's difficult to say what (if any) impact it might have.

Edit: Just timed them from video footage, they're both roughly 5.2-5.4s each, so there's nothing in it - the faster door operation on 378s is negated by a longer delay after the alarm sounds.

Section 54 - with DfT permission binding a future franchisee to a rolling stock lease beyond the current / initial franchise term, thus allowing ~20 year leases on new post privatisation stock.
It also had a habit of screwing over franchises with a rolling stock zoo of unsuitable rolling stock or lemons. The end of S54 is seeing a good clear out of less suitable stock.

With ABDO the release element will be quicker.

 

[samuelmorris]

?....

Automatic Braking & Door Opening.

Section 54 - with DfT permission binding a future franchisee to a rolling stock lease beyond the current / initial franchise term, thus allowing ~20 year leases on new post privatisation stock.
It also had a habit of screwing over franchises with a rolling stock zoo of unsuitable rolling stock or lemons. The end of S54 is seeing a good clear out of less suitable stock.

With ABDO the release element will be quicker.

Got it, thanks - that's not something I realised was particularly common. Presumably it only applied to the Desiros and possibly the 158/159s? Given that everything else is already scheduled to be replaced. I dunno, with the reliability of the 450/444 fleets as it is, it would seem very controversial to replace them just for door cycle dwell times - moving the units away from suburban operations to longer distance services seems like an appropriate enough decision.

Anyway, just remembered what thread this is, should probably end this conversation there!

 

[hwl]

?....

Automatic Braking and Door Opening effectively Thameslink Core style, which is first going to be rolled out on the 701 on the inner SWR metro network to reduce dwell times.

 

[swt_passenger]

Got it, thanks - that's not something I realised was particularly common. Presumably it only applied to the Desiros and possibly the 158/159s?

Only the initial post privatisation fleets, AIUI s54 didn’t ever get retrospectively used for existing stock. It was effectively a sweetener or guarantee to the purchasing ROSCO.

 

[hwl]

Automatic Braking & Door Opening.


Got it, thanks - that's not something I realised was particularly common. Presumably it only applied to the Desiros and possibly the 158/159s? Given that everything else is already scheduled to be replaced. I dunno, with the reliability of the 450/444 fleets as it is, it would seem very controversial to replace them just for door cycle dwell times - moving the units away from suburban operations to longer distance services seems like an appropriate enough decision.

Anyway, just remembered what thread this is, should probably end this conversation there!

Only new post privatisation stock e,g Desiro, Electrostar, Voyager, Pendolino,

 

[47550]

Only the initial post privatisation fleets, AIUI s54 didn’t ever get retrospectively used for existing stock. It was effectively a sweetener or guarantee to the purchasing ROSCO.

Surely the guarantee of a longer lease would mean less risk for the ROSCO and therefore lower lease costs for the franchise operator ? Which has to be a good thing for lower fares.

 

[transmanche]

Surely the guarantee of a longer lease would mean less risk for the ROSCO and therefore lower lease costs for the franchise operator ? Which has to be a good thing for lower fares.

You'd think. But remember, HSBC Rail was charging £150k a year in leasing fees for a handful of life-expired class 483 units (ex-1938 stock) used on Island Line when there were no realistic alternatives for the TOC to use.

 

[Snow1964]

Automatic Braking & Door Opening.


Got it, thanks - that's not something I realised was particularly common. Presumably it only applied to the Desiros and possibly the 158/159s? Given that everything else is already scheduled to be replaced. I dunno, with the reliability of the 450/444 fleets as it is, it would seem very controversial to replace them just for door cycle dwell times - moving the units away from suburban operations to longer distance services seems like an appropriate enough decision.

Anyway, just remembered what thread this is, should probably end this conversation there!

This is 3 years old, but lists the fleets subject to section 54

https://www.parliament.uk/business/...nts/written-question/Commons/2016-09-06/45157

 

[Mikey C]

This is 3 years old, but lists the fleets subject to section 54

https://www.parliament.uk/business/...nts/written-question/Commons/2016-09-06/45157

Surprised to see the Chiltern 165s there but none of the 168s purchased since privatisation

Also odd to see the ex Southern 377s but none of the other Electrostar fleets

 

[hwl]

Surprised to see the Chiltern 165s there but none of the 168s purchased since privatisation

Also odd to see the ex Southern 377s but none of the other Electrostar fleets

Many of the S54 had expired in the few years before that document was published hence the question to clarify the information on the remaining ones.
Chiltern 165 were upgrade related as was the 455 retractioning